Valid Love
Discussions and interviews about all things love: Kink, Intimacy, and alternative relationships, including the relationship with yourself.
Valid Love
Stalker Vampires and Book Boyfriends: Our Toxic Media Obsessions
In this episode we explore how media influences our perceptions of relationships and sexuality from childhood through adulthood, examining everything from Disney movies to influencer culture and book boyfriends.
• Disney princess narratives set unrealistic gender-specific expectations about love and relationships from childhood
• Social media and influencers present carefully curated relationship content that hides the real work behind healthy partnerships
• Dating apps have created a superficial culture based on appearance and overwhelm of choice
• Media commonly portrays toxic relationship dynamics like the anxious-avoidant dance as romantic and desirable
• Romance novels and "book boyfriends" create fantasy standards that real partners struggle to match
• Diverse relationship representation in media is slowly improving but still has significant gaps
• Porn access restrictions in various states raise questions about censorship, sex education, and ethical content creation
We'd love to hear your thoughts! Email us at podcast@validlove.org with your feedback and experiences with media influence on relationships.
welcome back to valid love podcast. I'm leah, I'm rebecca and we're here.
Speaker 2:We're here once again on schedule and it surprises us every time. I'm not really sure why. Every time we're like oh yeah, we made it. Oh yeah, we're, we've showed up. I think because it was so hard for a season to like, it was so hard to show up, and now we're like oh yay, now we're queens, we've already won.
Speaker 1:Queens of showing up. So today we are going to do I'm really excited for this episode we're doing media impact on sex and relationships. Is that what you want to call it?
Speaker 2:Yes, Media influence on relationships.
Speaker 1:Because it influences it, baby. I mean from the time we're kids, From the time we start consuming media.
Speaker 2:it is impacting how we view ourselves and romance and I mean later sex- yeah, I mean, let's even reflect on growing up like I was a 90s baby, grew up with the Disney movies, right, and there's always that like princess gets prince and then you get married and you live happily ever after. But don't worry, there's this evil person that's going to be in your way. But love conquers all.
Speaker 1:And love doesn't conquer all, unfortunately.
Speaker 2:But it gives you a really like fucked up expectation it does. And so when we take that from childhood and that messaging in childhood of what a nuclear family looks like, what a relationship is supposed to look like, what success of a relationship looks like is going off to the sunset in a carriage with mice following you, I don't know and then we look at the impact as we get older Right, that idea of happily ever after after.
Speaker 1:I mean not even I mean, yes, the idea of happily ever after, but also the, the dynamics that it is. You know, putting that is gender specific right, like really setting up men to feel like they have to save the day, save the day and be the strong ones, and, you know, lead in a lot of senses and you know the women are meant to be rescued and like can't really take care of themselves. Except Meg from Hercules, she did not need rescuing, she was hot, she was literally the hottest, I'm pretty sure. Anyway, but highly avoidant, that Meg. So a different topic, very highly avoidant.
Speaker 2:I loved the song. Won't Say I'm in Love. Everyone does, loved it in high school. What a bop. It is a bop. We need to bring that back. We need a new remake of that. But yeah, so relationships take work, but we never see the work. We never see the work. I'm even thinking and we're going to talk about this like celebrity relationships and social media and all those things.
Speaker 1:We see these perfect lives and we don't see very carefully curated content, right, and that's on social media, that's on dating apps. That's widespread. That you're seeing. You're seeing these aspects of relationships and, yeah, no one's talking about the people who are talking about the work to make it work are like the therapists on social media, right.
Speaker 2:Exactly. I'm even thinking again, thinking of reality TV shows. Do you remember Nick and Jessica's, like Jessica Simpson and Nick Lachey oh, what was that show called, I don't know? Yeah, their show together. Yeah, the newlyweds or something like that, and their marriage didn't work out? No, it sure did not. But I remember there being like a hyper fixation on her virginity and what newlywed life looked like, and chicken of the sea. I don't know. That was such a weird time. It was a weird time.
Speaker 2:But if you think about it, reality tv was really taking off at that point. That's true, yeah, um, and I'm sure there's TV before. But like we're talking about looking in, like inside someone's lives, and we started getting invested. Yeah, we were invested in the Jessica Nick Lachey story that doesn't exist anymore. Right, I think she's divorcing her second husband now. Maybe I have no idea. I don't know. I don't Absolutely, but the point is we get invested in these celebrity relationships and it feels personal when they end. Yeah, but we don't know the work that goes into it. How do you think that looks different or similar with influencers versus celebrities?
Speaker 1:like their comedy or their pranks or whatever it is, and people get so invested in their lives and their relationships and I can only imagine what kind of pressure that puts on a couple when things behind the scenes aren't going well. And then it creates a whole lot of I don't know different reasons to stay in a relationship that's not working.
Speaker 2:And yeah, it's Because your money's tied to it.
Speaker 1:Your money's tied to it, and, yeah, you've built money's tied to it. Your money's tied to it and, yeah, you've built this business off of it. I mean, we've turned relationships into, like everything else, a commodity.
Speaker 2:Right, right, capitalism, oh yes, capitalism it's interesting because we are hearing more about parenting as it relates to influencer culture. We're seeing a mass exodus of these influencer families moving out of californ of as of January 1, there's now a requirement for them to pay and put money in a trust for children that are in their content. Like, if you're in I don't remember what percentage a percentage of content you're supposed to put a percentage of income in a trust for them for when they're an adult.
Speaker 1:That seems appropriate.
Speaker 2:It's appropriate, but now they're leaving to move to Tennessee. Who doesn't give a shit, jesus? And so when we're thinking about people who are really let's do what's best for our family versus making content, yeah, and then. So if they're willing to do that with their kids, what are they willing to do for their marriage?
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly so yeah, and I think that gives people yet again a warped view what relationships are looking like. And it's because people are pretending.
Speaker 2:People on social media are pretending most of them, if not all of them, I mean yeah, people who adopted a child and gave the child back, but it also a lot of views, and so it's just that influencer culture is just so interesting in the impact on relationships. I can remember having clients who have struggled with my relationship doesn't look like theirs. Does that mean something's wrong with my relationship?
Speaker 1:no-transcript. Of course there are relationships that exist where surprises and gifts are a norm of that culture, right, but it's just hard to tell.
Speaker 2:It's hard to parse it all out. It is hard to parse it all out. I remember I listened to dating detectives. Do you listen to that?
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Oh, my God, it's excellent, okay so they have these things called dogfish, and so these are people who say they are who they are but they're living double lives.
Speaker 2:Wait, dogfish as opposed to catfish, yes, because, catfish, you're saying you're someone else. Okay, dogfish, you are you, but you're living a separate life. Well, what does that mean? Well, some of them have said they're fbi agents. Oh, some have said, like, there's people have multiple families right, it's wild. Like it's not just cheating stories, it's like I have lived a whole life that you don't know about.
Speaker 2:Okay, it's an excellent podcast. I'd encourage you to listen to it. I sure will. I'm a part of their Patreon. It's very exciting. But there's one episode and I can't remember which one where a person was talking about their abusive boyfriend who got her a puppy oh no, but had to record it because he was an influencer oh no. And so they had to do this big video and he'd say stop, we have to redo it because you weren't excited enough and they would do it all over again, right, and that moment was really interesting for me because I was'll be honest with you, I'm not really into influencer culture. Sure, my partner gets really into. Like, all the different drama, I don't care, I it's, I'm here for vibes. Um, I have enough of my own drama. But it was the first time that I really thought about oh, how many of these people are abusive well, and think about being a kid in that dynamic too.
Speaker 1:Right like re-record, re-record, re-record, re-record, re-record.
Speaker 2:I can't get my kid to sit still for a photo, much less you want me to record him five times doing a prank.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely not, absolutely not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so we've talked about that from that broader perspective. But when we narrow that focus to online personas in general, that online versus in-life relationship and what that looks like, yeah, what do you mean?
Speaker 1:What do you mean by that, like the comparison of online versus in-person?
Speaker 2:relationship development. Tell me more. So I think about how, when we're texting people and how we can build intimacy really fast through that communication, like online, and then in real life, it doesn't translate. An example I can think of is Love is Blind. You know, they sit in these pods Currently watching. Yes, they're sitting in these pods and they're bearing their souls to each other. That doesn't translate in real life.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it does not Well. So I have had, obviously like relationships that have developed in person, people that I've met in person and a relationship has developed from there. I've also built relationships online that have then moved offline into real person, and sometimes those worked out and sometimes those didn't, but that's the same for the entire whole friendship. We met through Discord, we did meet through Discord, but I mean, can I ask you a personal question? Sure, on our shared podcast here, you met your partner online.
Speaker 2:I did and it did translate. Yeah, it did translate. It's a journey, but I will say it's also taken a lot of work. Once we've been in person, sure and so it's. We can build these facades and we can build these versions of ourselves online and then, real person, we see the mess of ourselves online and then real person, we see the mess.
Speaker 1:Well, this is what I always, you know, talk to clients about, because I I obviously I've done both right. I know that both can work and they, they're all valid. That's why we're here talking about them. But also, you have to be so, so careful of the, the, the fantasy and the pedestal. And in person, that is such a thing that still happens, but it's quicker to fall because you're around that person more often, you're seeing them more often, you're interacting with them more, and if you're putting someone on a pedestal, uh, they can't live up there for very long, but if you're online, you're long distance, whatever it's.
Speaker 1:So it's so much easier to like, create this fantasy land and yes, it really. You create stories, you create an idea of like how it would be if you were together in person, and it just takes. And those again, these relationships can happen, but, like, one or both of you have to be checking in and being like hey, are we really here's reality? Are we really considering A, b, c, d? Let's talk about it. Let's keep talking about it and see how it translates.
Speaker 2:An example of that I use. My therapy. Clients know that I use silly examples for everything to help put things in perspective. It's like going on a date with a softball coach. You've been on one date with a softball coach. A softball coach A softball coach. Because it's lesbian, right, it has to be a softball coach. Okay, you go on a date with a softball coach and all of a sudden you're thinking what would it be like to be the wife of a softball coach? How would you get to games? Would you go to practice? Would that be weird? Or would you invest in these children? The whole life building, the whole life building from one date.
Speaker 1:I think the kids these days, when you say the quiet parts out loud, I think they call it feature faking.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so being really careful in relationships, whether online or in person, that we're mindful what stories are we telling versus what's actually happening? Right, and because you've set an expectation for someone that they may not be able to meet.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, what are we really saying versus, like what do we want to see?
Speaker 2:What are we hoping to see?
Speaker 1:What are we? What have we pretended this whole time?
Speaker 2:Right yeah exactly, exactly and so and this is not just when we talk about online versus in person like this is in literature, it's in media, it's in porn right, these things happen all over. I'm curious and I I would love one day to interview someone that does OnlyFans sure we can do that because I'm curious about how it shapes intimacy and relationships, since you build more of a relationship with your audience.
Speaker 2:Actually I have someone I can ask oh, that would be great. Yeah, because I think that could be really impactful, because I'm curious, right, I'm curious, but yeah, so when we talk about relationship apps and swiping, oh, let's talk about how.
Speaker 1:Okay, maybe not a trash take. I think a lot of people would agree with me that I think dating apps like really ruined dating culture in like a lot of significant ways. I mean, I think it's also been helpful in ways, obviously, but by and large, I think it's given us, like our dopamine receptors, like the dopamine hits of getting likes and I don't know, just the overwhelm of choice.
Speaker 2:The overwhelm of choice, and they're not always meaningful choices.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's so superficial the idea of swiping All superficial, right, You're looking at a photo. I mean I have watched men in real time swipe on their apps. They are not reading the profiles most of the time, right, like that comes after if they get a match. Maybe then they'll like peruse. And I would never speak for all men, but I would say I've. I mean I don't know, I can only speak of how I have moved on apps, but I've always like read the profiles, right. I think women are probably just as guilty of just swiping.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely. I've known people tangentially that have said, oh, if they're not a certain height, then I just swipe. Yep, that's a thing too, and it's just kind of like right. But what if that person is exactly what you're looking for? Short, kings are kings, they are kings, yeah. So let them king. Let them king, that's right If they meet what you're looking for. But also that requires that self-reflection, self-awareness of what are we looking for? Am I looking for what media shows that I should want, or am I looking for a partner?
Speaker 1:You know what the other aspect of this is is. You know, yeah, Am I looking for what I want, or am I looking for the person who is going to look really good on my Instagram? How?
Speaker 2:do you think about that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's such a thing of like I've heard people say it like, oh, I'm really into him, but like I don't really like want to show him or her off, and I'm like, well, that's a problem.
Speaker 1:Is that what we're going for, right? Or are we trying to look for real vulnerability, attunement and connection and maybe, as an experiment, delete your social media for a year, make connections and see how that goes, see what happens, see if there's no pressure of you posting anyone or no one even knows who you're dating, like, just see what happens.
Speaker 2:That is so wild. I haven't thought about that. I, admittedly have social media to follow for just vibes. Like I said, if I want you are full vibes, I'm full, full vibing and so the idea of curating that like baffles me. Yeah, but I'll be honest with you, I don't have the energy to do any posting. I don't have energy to do much of anything on social media except looking for vibes.
Speaker 1:I'm I'm taking a break, yeah um, but I, I can't imagine that pressure I mean, just imagine how that pressure translates, not even just for dating, right Of like. Oh, I want a partner that's like, quote, unquote, post-worthy, but I want to live a life that's post-worthy or I don't know. It's the comparison culture, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I was saying what's post-worthy Right Like that doesn't make sense to me.
Speaker 1:Right, but it's the thing, you know, and I think that maybe not for all of us, but for quite a few people, it's a thing that they, that it's like operating within them but they don't realize that it's like impacting or influencing what they're doing or value or how they're behaving, or, you know, it's like it is cool to feel like you have a cool life and people are like jealous of it. You know like I can see how that would be. But, yeah, are you really forming a true attunement, connection with your own life, your own values and your own? What are you really looking for?
Speaker 2:in a partner? Absolutely, absolutely no. And it's so interesting when you talk about self-approval versus getting approval from others. Yeah, right, and so I think a lot of times what we see happening in those things is I need that approval from others. I don't know how to get it myself, sure, the external validation, and not willing to sit with the discomfort of figuring out how to give that approval.
Speaker 2:An example that I use with my therapy clients is I did a sex therapy presentation and it's just like a sex therapy 101 type thing, and it was on Zoom, which was hard because you can't really feed off the energy, like you don't really know how people are feeling and like people ask questions, but it was hard. I afterwards I was like I feel kind of weird about this because I couldn't interact with people and so I had emailed because I knew there was supposed to be evaluation at the end. So I emailed the people that put on this lunch and learn, type thing and I was like, hey, I would love to hear the evaluations. Nothing, I was ghosted completely. Wow.
Speaker 2:I messaged multiple times and so I was. I felt really ashamed and awkward for a few weeks, like I must have done horribly, they must have hated it, all these things. And then it took me a couple of weeks to realize wait a minute I did a damn good job. Yeah, they may not have been ready to hear the content because I can be quite radical as I talk about sex and capitalism and I just went full on radical and some people aren't ready to hear that. But I feel like I did a damn good job.
Speaker 1:But it took me a few weeks of being uncomfortable with not having that feedback to reach that point, to be able to give it to yourself and to acknowledge like hell, yeah, I did that.
Speaker 2:I did that and then I did that presentation again and this time I got the evaluations back within a week and this presentation had like 60 something people in it. I had one person give me negative feedback Wow, and that one person was not ready to hear the content. Sure, like, why do we have to talk about sex it? And that one person was not ready to hear the content. Sure, like, why do we have to talk about sex? It doesn't matter. Is it relates to therapy? Like it was very much a that's a you problem and that's a fascinating take. But yes, and some of the feedback that I got was very much like, oh, I wish I heard more of this. I wish there's like so it was helpful feedback, but it was just. It's interesting how it took me a few first time. Would I have been able to sit with that? Sure Like approving of my own work? Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I think that's a good point Learning how to learning how to get internal validation and not always seeking it externally, which is very hard in our current social media landscape.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, Absolutely. Is it a red flag or green flag if someone doesn't have social media? You know?
Speaker 1:I think you'll hear mixed things on this. For me, it's a personal green flag if someone doesn't have social media. You know, I think you'll hear mixed things on this. For me it's a personal green flag, yeah, but I can see how some people would think that was a red flag. Yeah, what?
Speaker 2:do you think I feel like it's yellow? Okay, like beige or whatever you'd call it. I think it depends If they have social media and you can tell that it's like just them living their lives like great. But when it looks curated, when it looks like ooh, there's not a lot of depth here.
Speaker 1:I think, that to me, would be a red flag of like oh, you're creating this image of yourself versus yeah this is just me hanging out, yeah, and I mean, do you have no social media or do you have like a secret social media? And what?
Speaker 2:are you doing?
Speaker 1:on that social media Right.
Speaker 2:What are?
Speaker 1:you consuming there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't even understand secrets. Anyway, it's a thing, dating detectives Talks about it a lot and it's again excellent podcast. Okay, but, um, yeah, that I can't keep up with my own life, much less like alternate persona. Yeah, so what does this look like with relationships and how representation in literature and media show up like thinking of, like diverse portrayals of relationships versus that like old-fashioned monolithic portrayal?
Speaker 1:I mean, I don't know that I'm consuming enough. What do you think like off the top of your head? I don't know that. I see I'm trying to think of like diverse portrayals. I suppose there are some, especially in represent, like trans. Representation has been bigger, which I love to see, but I don't know how well it's been represented.
Speaker 2:I don't think it's been represented well at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like it's there, but I don't know that it's like the way that it maybe should be represented.
Speaker 2:I think something that has been really cool to see and the impact of my children is seeing more diverse families in media. Okay, in ads on tv you may see two moms, you may see two dads. We're seeing shows where you're seeing like not just like mom and a dad raising their kid, but also like grandma helps. Yeah, and that's a part of their journey in these different families. We have a long way to go, but I think it's really cool. But when we talk about, a relationship looks just one particular way. How many shows did we watch where there were high school sweethearts that ended up together? So many, and how often does that actually happen?
Speaker 1:I mean it happens, but but it's not as common, not as common anymore. Certainly, yeah, yeah, and I mean I don't want to rush to the, to the part that I am passionate talking about, but there is so much toxic portrayal. Yes, that has so much toxic dynamic portrayal in all of it, and it's because it's drama, right and like that's what's going to get the ratings, that's what's going to get people invested, people like watching drama and therefore, but even I mean so, did you watch? Nobody wants this. No, you should. I don't know with kristen bell.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I watched the first two episodes and I got distracted by a book okay, that's fair.
Speaker 1:Um, you know a lot of people. There was a lot of mixed feelings on it, but a lot of people were celebrating it, as you know. It was like at least a modern representation of not so much the push-pull dynamic. It's like a pretty anxious person who has now found like a mostly secure person and it's just about watching like the secure man like interact with this anxious woman and just like be kind to her.
Speaker 1:You know, like bare minimum, but everyone like loses their shit because it's really hard, like we're not used to seeing that, right, yeah, but some people, some people had a lot of different feelings about it and that maybe it wasn't like still the most healthy representation. But, to be fair, like nothing is like all relationships are gonna have their stuff. Even healthy relationships have their stuff. Everyone has their moments, everyone has their baggage. That they're I mean hopefully doesn't mean perfect, yeah, hopefully, like mostly checking out the door, right, but like we all come with our own stuff, especially as we get older, and so it's less about being perfect and more just about like being healthy, but it's still.
Speaker 1:It's still a big representation, I think, in books and shows that you know it's, it's the push pull, it's the anxious avoidant dance. It's like one person pulling away and the other pursuing. It's yearning. You know we love a good yearn, but it's not not the healthiest to yearn so anxious. Um, if you your thing is, this yearning is a sign of relationship anxiety, just so you know, yeah I any type of angst?
Speaker 2:I'm like absolutely not. Um, I'm curious, if you thinking about tv and movies, what is a relationship that you feel like is idolized? That's toxic.
Speaker 1:Well, I, you know, I always go back to the developmental time of my life, right when we had Twilight. And you know, like why is this man? I feel like we talk about Twilight way too much, but why is this man in your bedroom watching you sleep and why do we all think that's romantic? Yes, and he like doesn't let you do and he's just like always watching you to make sure, like let girl take care of yourself. You can, he should let you. You know, like two healthy people, they can take care of themselves. They can do it so well, in fact, that they then have enough to give to one another. And that's like that's what we're not seeing represented as like two people who are so, so good at taking care of themselves that they are then showing up for one another. Do you know who?
Speaker 2:I think is super toxic. Who is gray's anatomy?
Speaker 1:oh my god, with meredith and derrick emotional masochism is just like that whole show.
Speaker 2:Uh, so I I watched for the like for a long time and then I'd say the past couple seasons I've kind of disengaged. But you want to talk about diverse portrayals. There's been some cool diversity in that show. Yeah, but meredith and derrick, right like I love christina's quote that she says before sandra o left the show of.
Speaker 2:Just like you are the son meredith, not him stop centering this man because she has to do her own emotional growth and work through her trauma to be good enough for him. Is that that's what I felt? Sure that may not be everyone's feelings about it, but it's just almost like how do we get meredith good enough for derrick right?
Speaker 1:and that power exchange is just, it doesn't feel good well and her having to like earn it right, like that's an anxious attachment, like feeling like you have to like earn or chase her. But when does he earn it for her right?
Speaker 2:and it just exists in his dreamy, I guess sure, um, but yeah, so it's just really interesting and I think it normalizes that. Oh, I have to be good enough for big dreamy yeah, I mean it's.
Speaker 1:every time I watch anything that's like a romantic portrayal, I've identified the dance right away, so that's what it's called the anxious avoidant dance, and in any of these shows movies most of the time they are there.
Speaker 2:And y'all all find each other. The anxious, y'all always find your avoidance, and avoidance, you always find your anxious, y'all just do it. Yep, it's a dance. So I want to kind of move a little bit to also talking about the book boyfriend.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, I love a good book boyfriend who doesn't love but, like, book boyfriends ruin my life. Book boyfriends ruin men for me a little bit and I have to like check myself. That's why we're talking about this. Is why we're talking about it, because book boyfriends are written by women most of the time. Yeah, and I love a man written by a woman. I really do.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, um, and so I think this is a struggle a lot of people have is we have these ideas of like fated mates and enemies to lovers and all these fun tropes. But those tropes aren't life.
Speaker 1:Sometimes they are tell me more well. I mean, like in the ways that you know attraction develops and you know life imitates art or whatever we want to call it but that doesn't mean it's like based in absolute reality and the healthiest version of how things should go, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And I think it again that conceptualize of what's healthy and what's not healthy, yeah, exactly. I feel like in romance novels they're always like the Mineroi six, seven, they're always huge and she's always real tiny. She's the tiniest, cutest, most helpless little thing, right, who like gets strong and do cool things, but they never talk about how, like, you can't kiss during sex because there's no way. Your bodies can reach each other that way.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, your face would be in his belly button.
Speaker 2:Yes, like let me brush in your tummy hair, like I don't know, but like we don't talk about how that looks and how that works.
Speaker 1:You know who my my wait. Who's your book boyfriend, who's like your ultimate book boyfriend?
Speaker 2:um, mine may be too toxic to share, oh no I have a very toxic boyfriend.
Speaker 1:She is telling on herself in real time.
Speaker 2:But I also recognize that is not what I want.
Speaker 1:A real life boyfriend, okay, well, that's fair I mean, I don't want a boyfriend at all, but that's all right. Oh, book, I guess I could have said book girlfriend as well.
Speaker 2:But I mostly read straight stuff. Okay, I think primarily because their sapphic literature is taking off but it's not as historically been as popular and so there's just more access to straight stuff. That makes and I like a book boyfriend and I think, because it's written by women, right, like it's. It's the vibe, the aesthetic, it is the vibe. Um, what is that?
Speaker 1:like shadow daddy aesthetic, right I don't know, my book boyfriend is so sweet and pure. It's gonna always be pita from the hungry games. Uh, I don't think he's oh no. Is he toxic? No, I don't think he's toxic.
Speaker 2:I haven't taken adorable golden retriever.
Speaker 1:I haven't taken that much time to think about it, um, but yeah, we love, we love a PETA energy. I also read some weird shit, so okay, yeah, I don't read that weird shit.
Speaker 2:I don't know that I ever had a book boyfriend, like when I was a teenager, like I always read a lot, but I never. I never was like you for me. But I mean I think that's also figuring like as a demisexual human, a queer human, trying like not really knowing, kind of the vibe yeah um, like I was never, never really cared about edward or jacob and twilight, like I just didn't care.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I didn't either. I thought they were both atrocious in their own ways.
Speaker 2:I mean that's fair and I like have read a lot of fan fiction I've told you about, and so there are people that I really like with certain characters, but I never saw myself in that, sure, but I know that it's. The point is to see yourself in that Right, and so if you're seeing yourself in a relationship with a werewolf shifter who's seven feet tall, that's not life.
Speaker 1:That is not life.
Speaker 2:But if you find a werewolf shifter, tell me. I want to hear all the lore, I want to understand how it works. Do you have to be naked when you shift or can you shift back into your clothes?
Speaker 1:Like I have questions, I think book boyfriends have ruined me personally more than like media representation anywhere else. Tell me why I just think, well, because I was always a reader, so I've been reading. I just like consume so many books and I, I just like consume so many books and I always have consumed so many books. I've probably read more than I've watched TV in my life. And yeah, I mean, I think it's just the men written by women thing, like you're just seeing so much representation. And that's not to say that these men like this don't exist, but like they're really like understanding and they like can apologize and it's all just bare minimum stuff. You know it's. It looks very different, I think in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2:Not, it depends on what you're reading right, but absolutely and I think so I love rebecca yaros. She's the one that wrote the fourth wing series. You love rebecca yaros. I love rebecca fascinating, um, like she just seems like a cool human, okay.
Speaker 2:But I've read a lot of her just romance novels too, and her husband is a I think he's retired but like a helicopter pilot for the military and all of her romance novels are centered around a partner being a helicopter flyer or in the military Right, and there's this intensity and it's from a really deep love story she has with her husband and it's a beautiful story, like their lives together as well. But it's so interesting because I can walk away being like, oh, that military man concept is hot. And then when I hear stories it's like no, and like I am sure they're very hot and great military man like that is not me saying there's not. But when that becomes like all military men look like this, because all military men in my books look like this, right, and then all of a sudden, so if you don't fit that mold of the helicopter flyer, that's again six, seven and all these things then you're left going. But why am I not good enough as I am?
Speaker 1:because I don't fit the man you see in your book yeah, and I think I think maybe my personal problem with like reading so much is, you know, like we know, we know now, or we should have maybe known all along. But, like you know, books are just book, stories are just stories. They are written to sell. There has to be drama points in them and I think, maybe in a naive sense, like, especially like growing up as like maybe a young teenager, there was a little, maybe maybe a little bit of hope of like reading these stories of it's like well, like yeah, but this is a story and this is a creation, but like maybe these women actually like know men who like show up this way or like act this way, and so I think it, like I think it. I think it was harder for me to completely separate of like no, this is like just a story, like just let it be a story.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, um, and I realize now that I've said absolutely about 45 times, I have not been counting. I have started mentally counting, oh no, and it's gotten up to anxiety response?
Speaker 2:Exactly, damn it. My therapist recently told me that I have a compulsion of saying like does that make sense? Oh, I do that too, and I've started realizing that I do it a lot in my therapy sessions with my clients, and so I'm like does that? Like, let me not, but anyway, so yeah. So that idea of like idealized love stories versus like real life and real life partners, because we don't just work on one conflict and then get our happy ever after in our relationship Nope, lots of conflict All the time. Like happy ever after is constant work.
Speaker 1:It is yeah, and it's not to say that I don't think people can't live, quote unquote, happily ever after, but that's not. It's not easy. Those beautiful, beautiful things that a lot of people don't learn about because we're watching or consuming this media where I don't. It also doesn't show very good conflict resolution a lot of the time, right, yeah. Or like ways and going about you know, like the silent treatment is like portrayed a lot, or yes, or love bombing, having to show, yeah, like this, like big grand gesture god, how big was that in, like the 80s and 90s? Right, that, like you piss a girl off oh gosh, what was it. And 10 things I hate about you.
Speaker 2:Like she got the guitar, like, yeah, she got this, the song and the bleachers you know, like, right, these huge gestures, when really just what would have helped is acknowledging like let me take accountability, yeah, and let me say sorry, right, sorry, take accountability. I don't need a room full of roses.
Speaker 1:I will take a guitar Fair for any man who's listening.
Speaker 2:Just kidding. If you gave me a guitar, I'd be like what do you want me to do with this? Can you take this back, because that is not in my skill house. Skill house, wheelhouse, yeah, wheelhouse. How do you think we should look at different genres in regards to like effective communication?
Speaker 1:What do you mean?
Speaker 2:Like we have self-help books we have. I feel like every therapist is writing a book these days Like do you think that helps people on effective communication? Self-help books.
Speaker 1:Sure, I mean, I think it depends on who you are receiving the help from. Who you are receiving the help from, because there are plenty of people writing books who aren't, you know, in the what am I saying? In the profession, you know, and I think I was. Is there a book called? Oh, maybe I don't even want to mention it, but do you remember, in the early I was in, so it must have been, you know, around like 2010s, right, but there was a huge outburst of, like, men writing books about, like, how to pick up women, like do you know what I'm talking about?
Speaker 2:maybe I remember the book like women are from venus, men are from mars.
Speaker 1:No, that's like old, old. No, there was like a whole pickup artist like explosion, where they like interesting and so, yeah, I mean people are reading those and like can those quote-unquote help? Or like who are you listening to who's? Why is this man qualified to tell you, like, how to pick up women? Yeah, is he a therapist? Right, he has a doctorate degree in, and this was specifically about like having sex with women, gotcha, yeah but you know it's interesting.
Speaker 2:I I will say Come as you Are has been such a popular book and so impactful for a lot of our clients.
Speaker 1:I love. Come as you Are.
Speaker 2:It's a great book. Yeah, I wish there was a male equivalent. I keep saying that, yeah, so I need a male sex therapist or whoever Someone. Can you write a male version so I could give to my clients? It'd be wonderful Because I think that could be really beneficial, because desire looks different. You know we have different types of desire in general and I feel like we explore that so much for people with vulvas, but we don't explore it for men as much. We assume they all have active desire and are ready to go.
Speaker 2:But they don't, but they don't, and so let's talk about that. Maybe that can be a future conversation.
Speaker 1:Do we know any men sex therapists?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I probably can find one, we should probably talk to one. Okay, because I would love to hear more from that perspective. Yeah, in the future.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I mean I think self-help books are helpful if you're actually, you know, reading it, doing the work and taking it in. But, as with everything, like do your research outside of of that, figure out like what that person is talking about, where they're coming from, when their qualifications are, absolutely because you know there is no one approach fits all to everything. If there were, then we would all have like the best, healthiest, happiest relationships. Life is hard. You gotta check yourself a whole lot despite. I mean, I'm guilty of like reading self-help books and then like forgetting everything that I just read, you know, within like two weeks, like stay on top of it.
Speaker 2:I'd have to have the attention span to read them correct and I don't, because if it's not a vampire stalking someone, I just can't do it. Okay, stalking speaking of which, let me tell you. So I've read, we're going to go into what we're reading because I'm excited to share this. So I have read a like vampire, stalker, like duology, and the. The author has definitely received therapy and I almost thought they were a therapist, but I looked them up in their anthropology major, um, but they have done ifs, so internal family systems, and they were doing parts work with the stalker vampire and the girl who was traumatized that he's dating and it was actually a really healthy portrayal really of parts and trauma and what it looks like. And, of course, this vampire is thousands of years old, so he's doing this whole like it's my wisdom of living for a thousand years and it's like no bitch, you bitch, you went to therapy.
Speaker 1:Is he yearning? Oh, he's always yearning Ugh vampires.
Speaker 2:They do yearn, they do yearn, they do yearn and anyway, it's a really cool series. But it was just fascinating and I'm like, oh, you've been in therapy. Like this is a legit portrayal of like doing trauma work. I love that and so I'm kind of obsessed with it. That's what you're reading right now. Yeah, I just finished the duology recently. I'll put it in the show notes because I can't remember the name. It's like stocked by shadows and something I don't know. It was excellent, toxic as hell, but is self-aware about it being toxic as hell. You know, it's a step, it's a step and we all have toxic. I say stalker, stalking is not healthy, stalking is not okay. How I'm portraying stalking is this like yearning, need to take care of someone, yearn and letting yourself being taken care of Aw, she's like. But true, stalking is bad, right, please, don't. No, like stalking itself is okay, stalking is not sexy, please don't do it.
Speaker 2:It's not sexy.
Speaker 1:I mean sex in a vampire. Does it in this, you know, trauma-informed way? I don't know? I'm still in the camp that I do not want my vampire boyfriend in my room in the middle of the night without my express permission. But what if he furnishes your entire apartment for you? No, you know what? We didn't even talk about the weird money dynamics that go into some of these stories. I think that's gonna be a part two. We'll have to do a part two because I have a lot of feelings about those representations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we will. We will do a part two, because now it's time for tit bits. Oh yeah, today we're going to talk about porn laws. Okay, do you know why we're going to talk about porn law? Tell me, because there are a lot of states that have now restricted porn to the point where you have to have age verification and content restrictions you know the state that we're.
Speaker 1:I don't even think we can't even, can we? We can't even access porn right.
Speaker 2:Well, so the law is that you have to verify that someone is 18 or older. How do you verify? Usually with a driver's license. Okay, the problem is porn companies have said we don't want to be on the hook for liability. Well, sure. And so they have said then you just get no porn.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:No porn for you, and so people can get around that, right. People use VPNs. There's different methods of getting around it.
Speaker 1:But how do you feel about that? You know, I guess I'm not sure I'm going to let that marinate for a second. How do you feel about it?
Speaker 2:I think there's a couple problems with it. Sure, sex work is real work. Oh, of course we, we know that. Do I have moral issues with unethical porn?
Speaker 1:sure, is this like? This is only fans and like everything. What is it? What does this encompass?
Speaker 2:this encompasses anything that's considered pornography.
Speaker 1:Is OnlyFans considered pornography?
Speaker 2:Yes, but you still have to do a verification process to join OnlyFans, don't you? Sure? Okay, yeah, but places like Pornhub, which is where a lot of people consume, and other websites that are typically easy to access, right and free, have just said we just won't be in your state.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think this is a really nuanced topic. A good topic, but very nuanced. So yeah, sex work, of course, is real work and it is taking away real work from people. Is that what you said?
Speaker 2:Yeah. And then also like freedom of speech Freedom of speech, yeah, right. Like why is the government in our bedroom?
Speaker 1:well, the government's in our wombs, so get out of there.
Speaker 2:There's nothing fun happening in there I mean so right.
Speaker 2:So it's just, it's interesting and so I'm curious and I would love to hear from people where do you get your porn? What are you doing if you're in a state? Where do you get your porn? Yeah, because other apps have also like started cracking down. Like I know, discord went through a thing of like if you had anything explicit, you had to be a certain kind of just like you had to change your label, and there's just been so many changes on what is okay and not okay yeah, and it's hard too, because there there is so much like unethical porn out there and I think that's why I have like mixed feelings about it in general.
Speaker 1:But that's like that feels like a separate topic than like this one.
Speaker 2:Well, and there's a difference in having like I have a moral issue with this, but it's not my life and it's not my business. That's fair.
Speaker 1:no-transcript do you think people were effectively learning about sex through porn, though?
Speaker 2:we see that a lot in the gay culture, right. Especially if you don't know anything about sex and you're, like I, may be gay, right. I see this especially with gay men. Their relationship with sex has been connected to porn specifically. That's a great point, and having to unlearn what healthy sex looks like because they've only seen it through this one lens we really need sex education.
Speaker 2:Oh God, so we're going to do an episode on comparative sex education. Because my partner's Canadian oh fun, yeah, we're doing that, we are doing that. That because my partner's Canadian oh fun, yeah, we're doing that, we are doing that. That sounds great. Love that for us. So she had a very like all-encompassing sex education, whereas we get nada, not a whole lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you, it sounds like, had a better sex education than I did, but primarily because I think your family was more yeah, I mean I learned a lot through my family, but even I'm trying to like even remember what it was like in junior high, high school.
Speaker 2:but I think we got the very standard you know, like ori sperm and you know um, and that's pretty much let me traumatize you with watching a child.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean we got like the standard, the standardized for yeah enough of it. It wasn't like and it wasn't an abstinent only. I mean, that was like was like preached still of like, just don't do it, but also like use condoms and like you know, SNF TDs are real and all that, all that stuff. So, um, yeah, I think I got like a pretty standard baseline education and then, yeah, I had a very sexually open family that talked about it.
Speaker 2:So I anyway. So back to the porn laws and age verification. I think it's just it, anyway. So back to the porn laws and age verification. I think it's just. It's really interesting and impactful and I'm curious to see politically how that shift continues. Yeah, because we know it impacts our state, but it's it's impacting a lot of states.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I personally would like to learn more about this and I would love I would love to hear people's opinions on it from all over. You guys want to write in and like tell, because I would love to just learn more about this issue in general.
Speaker 2:So if y'all have any thoughts or feelings on this or anything else we have said at any of our podcasts, please email us at podcastatvalidloveorg. Yeah, vivacom, you get to choose. You get to choose. We should just stick to one, though, okay. Podcast at validloveorg.
Speaker 1:Yeah, less confusing, that's fair. Yeah, that's fair, all right. Well, we did it Great job. We did it Great job team. That was fun. I think we should do a part two. I would love to do a part two on this, because there's just so much here to talk about.
Speaker 2:Yes, because we did even really. We talked about porn a little bit, but erotica and how that impacts fantasies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're going to do a part two and maybe have it more erotica-based. I love it. Does that sound good? Yeah, we talked about relationships.
Speaker 2:Now let's talk about sex. Sex, awesome. All right, guys. We'll see you all next time. Bye.
