Valid Love
Discussions and interviews about all things love: Kink, Intimacy, and alternative relationships, including the relationship with yourself.
Valid Love
Whack-a-Mole Mind: When OCD Invades Your Love Life
Kaelin, a therapist specializing in OCD, explores relationship OCD and the destructive cycle of intrusive thoughts and compulsions that can hijack healthy relationships.
• OCD operates through intrusive thoughts causing distress, followed by compulsions that temporarily relieve anxiety
• Relationship OCD involves persistent doubts about one's relationship despite evidence of compatibility
• Common intrusive thoughts include questioning attraction, compatibility, or whether there's someone better
• Compulsions often involve reassurance seeking, comparing relationships, and obsessively researching relationship advice
• Partners of those with OCD often feel invalidated when constant reassurance doesn't help
• Effective OCD treatment includes Exposure and Response Prevention (ERP)
• Setting boundaries as a partner is important but challenging—supporting without feeding the OCD cycle
• Resources for help include NOCD and the International OCD Foundation
• Sexual OCD and pedophilia OCD are particularly stigmatized forms that attack a person's core values
• Intrusive thoughts about taboo subjects don't reflect a person's character or desires
Welcome to Vow Love. I'm Rebecca and today we have with us Caitlin.
Speaker 2:Hi, very excited to be here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so Leah is actually has abandoned us. I'm just kidding. She has left the country to go to Ireland for a few weeks Dang, so we are really excited for her Great time to go.
Speaker 2:I mean St Patrick's Day and everything, although I'm sure the Irish don't celebrate it. The actual Irish don't celebrate St Patrick's Day the way American Irish do.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I'm not sure. It's not something I've actually given a lot of thought to. To be 100% honest, yeah, do you celebrate St Patrick's Day?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, my parents used to hide little gold coins around the house when we were growing up and say that leprechauns put them there, but we are many generations removed from our Irish roots. That's fair, yeah.
Speaker 1:You know it's interesting thinking about and this is actually kind of morbid to think about, to be honest but thinking of colonialism and the impact of the English and the Irish. We talk about cultures that have historically drinking problems, right. We talk about indigenous people having drinking problems, irish people having drinking problems, and I'm using your quotes, right. But if we think about the roots of that colonialism, of the british people invading ireland, oh my god, I don't think I ever thought about that, and so it's just really interesting to think about how we conceptualize quote-unquote problems, yeah, that people have when they have been colonialized, colonized, colonized that's the better word?
Speaker 2:yeah, that sounds right. I mean honestly, I didn't colonialized, did not pay for me, so I was like yeah.
Speaker 1:So it's just interesting to think about that relationship between like stereotypes regarding substance use and being colonized yeah, I.
Speaker 2:I think that would be very interesting. I'd be very curious to see like, yeah, more research about that and about like. I wonder about the history of like when alcohol became more popular, or I know like. Anyway, before I tangent, I think it's a whole other podcast episode.
Speaker 1:Totally tangent, yeah, totally different podcast episode. So I'm really excited to have Kaylin on board today. So Kaylin is our resident OCD expert here at Valid Love. So today we're going to be talking about relationship OCD. But before we do that, kaylin, introduce yourself a little bit. Tell us about you.
Speaker 2:So I'm Kaylin. I have worked at Valid Love for about the past. Well, it's been six months now. It has been six months now. Yeah, oh, that's wonderful. And I kind of fell sideways into working with OCD. I started out primarily specializing with eating disorders in my career and there happens to be a pretty substantial overlap between struggling with an eating disorder and also struggling with obsessive compulsive disorder, so I've ended up working with both of those things and I also do some work with couples counseling and with sex therapy, which I'll feel very separate. But for me it's all kind of about my clients living the life that they really want to. I can make choices instead of feeling like I don't have a choice but to do this ritual or I don't have a choice about pursuing this kind of sex that I want to have.
Speaker 1:I like how you're conceptualizing choice, yeah, and taking ownership of those choices, and how do we do that? Yeah, it's kind of funny. So how I met Kaylin is. Kaylin was like, hey, I want to network. And I was like, sure, let's go to dinner. So we met for dinner and by the end of it I was like, hey, do you want to just come work for me? And she was like I didn't come here with the intention of getting a job offer and I was like I didn't come here with the intention of giving you one but here we are.
Speaker 2:I was absolutely shocked, did not see that one coming. I was like sitting at the cavo my mouth hanging open. I was like you said what to me now and it's been great? Yeah, I mean, it was was. And then, of course, you know, I tell this, uh, the story of how I got this job to other people, and I probably really shouldn't say this in this, in this job climate, because it's real rough out there and I just but honestly, you want to put one of my lab.
Speaker 1:I was going to say, if people want a job with me, they really just need to meet for lunch and be cool and I'm like, oh okay okay, yeah, as long as, as long as you're okay with an anal sex joke.
Speaker 2:That seemed to be.
Speaker 1:I think that was the moment when I passed the threshold, so you passed the threshold. So in most of my interviews actually not most all of my interviews I make a couple sex jokes because I want to see how people respond right.
Speaker 1:I have a stained glass vulva on my window that one of my therapists gave me. If you can't handle the vibe, that's okay, we're just not the right fit for you, and so it's a unique workplace. If I mention a butt plug and you have a reaction, you failed the interview. It's just kind of how it goes, and so you didn't bat an eye and just had more questions, and so I was like, okay, I do remember that now, yep.
Speaker 1:And I was like all right, this is a vibe, we can do this, but tell me a little bit more. So tell me about OCD, relationship, ocd. I will be honest with you. The first time I had, a client say I think I have relationship OCD. I thought they were making it up, so tell me more.
Speaker 2:I think it's a pretty common misconception. I mean, it's all the kinds of OCD that are known. I feel like relationship OCD is one of the least well-known, and I will add the caveat that it doesn't usually present in isolation. It's not very common that, like I, will have this obsession about relationships and absolutely no other OCD.
Speaker 1:So let's go back for a second to OCD. Let's explain OCD, because I'm thinking like, yes, I hear you, but people listening may not understand.
Speaker 2:So well speaking of choices. Obsessive compulsive disorder follows a cycle and it consists of two things. It's I have this thought pop into my head and this thought causes me a great deal of distress. In the DSM that's listed as fear. That's the definition. But most OCD experts will tell you it can be anything. It can be shame, disgust, even anger. To a sense it's I have this very distressing thought. Sometimes the thought is realistic, sometimes the thought is not so realistic and we call that the intrusive thought and for a lot of people that can kind of center in on what your values are and it feels like something very counter to you, something very foreign not something you really believe in.
Speaker 1:Can you give me, like a generic example, foreign, not something you really believe in. Can you give me?
Speaker 2:like a generic example Harm, ocd. So I took a look at. I care a lot about people. I'm generally a compassionate person, for instance, and when I see a knife on the countertop, I have this image of myself picking it up and stabbing the person next to me with it. So that's an intrusive thought. Intrusive thoughts are generally accompanied by compulsions, which is something the person does Well, so we all have intrusive thoughts. Let me back up for a second Right. Everybody has like a weird thought from time to time. They're like why on earth did, I think, have this weird?
Speaker 1:impulse to drive my car off the bridge.
Speaker 2:I can push that person in front of the train Like it's fine. Yep, everybody has that, people with OCD. The intrusive thought latches on, it's sticky and it feels personal and it feels really meaningful and really frightening. It feels like that's a distinct possibility that could happen. Even if I don't really believe in the possibility, there is a possibility and that's really frightening. And so to manage that distress and neutralize that thought, people with OCD will develop compulsions. Compulsions can be external. So taking the knife example, for instance, it might be I leave the kitchen. I am not staying anywhere near a knife. I put knives under lock and key and have like a little padlock in my house, so that's where they go. I only make recipes where nothing has to be cut up. I get rid of my knives. So avoidance can be a big compulsion. Or they can be kind of internal. I have to picture myself not stabbing someone. I have to replace that image with a different thought. Or I have to pray six times. I have to say six times.
Speaker 1:I'm Catholic, so I mean my prayers are going to be automatic, like Catholic in my examples. Are you Catholic-Catholic? Or like recovering Catholic, Recovering Catholic?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but yeah, like I have to say six Hail Marys in order to make this thought go away, or I have to Block. Blocking is a compulsion that's really hard to catch for a lot of people. But I kind of like have that instant, like I notice the intrusive thought and then I freeze and it's like I can't think about anything. I am just focused on not picturing that thought. Most of these strategies are unsuccessful. So compulsions temporarily work. They temporarily relieve the distress, but then the thought's going to come back and then you have to compulse again to get rid of it. And the thought comes back and you have to compulse again to get rid of it, and it keeps going and going and going.
Speaker 1:And so I'm curious too, with people with multiple intrusive thoughts, right Like it's not always just the knife If they do the compulsion and they stop the knife thing. Is it like whack-a-mole, where just another one's going to pop up?
Speaker 2:It just under the one's going to pop up. It can be. Are you talking about, like, if people have multiple kind of like themes with OCD, or yeah, I, compulsions ultimately don't work, so it might be that it might not be that, like you know, I put the knife in a drawer and leave it and then I instantly have another like thought that's OCD. But they don't get rid of OCD, they don't get rid of those intrusive thoughts, so they just kind of temporarily neutralize them so that they're not scary. So, yeah, and it doesn't stop the next time that something triggers it, the next time I see a knife, or if, like, I have another kind of OCD, like, let's say, I'm afraid of contamination. Putting away the knife, it's not going to do anything, for I see a door handle and I think about that I could be carrying COVID.
Speaker 1:And what happens with and this is just my own curiosity before you get into the relationship specifically is what happens with logic, Like I know, a lot of times when we talk about anxiety, we talk about reframing, gathering evidence, checking evidence. Is that helpful for OCD?
Speaker 2:I will slightly contradict established OCD practice by saying this.
Speaker 2:I think it is helpful to a point because especially for OCD that happens mostly up here where I'm having mostly mental compulsions people can really start believing those thoughts and I find it helpful with my clients to go in and argue with a thought with me in session or with somebody else who is trained in OCD to detach from that that like I don't actually believe in this thought, but most of the time it doesn't operate under the same logic as like a generalized anxiety kind of case it is.
Speaker 2:I know it's really unrealistic that I'm going to pick up this knife and stab someone, but the possibility feels really really frightening. So, and to your point about logic, I think that can be a stumbling block in treatment for a lot of people, especially if their OCD doesn't present kind of the way that we expect Therapists can accidentally reinforce it by. I'm going to argue with this thought, I'm going to try to out-logic it and try to reframe it and it's not really the in most most of the time, unless like your insight with your OCD is is pretty challenging. Most people don't really believe it. They know it's crazy, they know it's like this isn't going to happen. It's not logical, but it just feels so frightening to allow that possibility to exist.
Speaker 1:And that's so. It's interesting my partner has OCD and she's already said you're going to bring me up, it's fine. But so I cooked chicken last night and when I cook chicken I have a meat thermometer and I check to make sure it's the right temperature and all those things. I did all that. I checked in the breast she ate. She said, rebecca, this tastes funny. I said it's, it's fine. She said no, no, something's wrong with this chicken.
Speaker 2:I'm like it's nothing wrong with this.
Speaker 1:I checked the temperature and all that. She said take a bite. I took a bite and what it was is it was juicy chicken. You know, sometimes you get chicken that just like it's not dried out, like it's juicy.
Speaker 2:You mean hopefully like well cooked. Yes, but it's not overcooked, yeah, but again it was the right temperature.
Speaker 1:Like I did all the things and she just couldn't eat it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then she found herself later going I'm having such intrusive thoughts that you and the kids are going to get sick because you ate the chicken. I stopped eating the chicken, but you didn't.
Speaker 2:This is good exposure for her too. If like so, how you treat OCD. Well, you can talk about how we treat OCD. I know I'm like I hesitate to jump ahead with spoilers, but how you treat OCD is Spoilers of your mental illness. Let's jump into chapter 10 when we're in. Chapter one Is identifying what is the thing that I'm afraid of happening, and kind of like a controlled way, because if you're too afraid, you're not going to take any information in but in a controlled way, seeing what happens If I don't do the things that I usually do to manage myself from or manage that anxiety. So in this case it would be like she stopped herself from eating the chicken, but she didn't forcibly pick up your plate and toss it out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we keep eating.
Speaker 2:And so she's, if her anxiety is low enough that she can take that information and she can. It's like a science experiment. Let me watch what happens and test my OCD's hypothesis Did you get sick, Did the kids get sick? And hopefully that's evidence that the person can be like okay, like the scary thing happened and I survived. No one died, Nothing catastrophic happened. It felt really scary. It felt catastrophic, which is why you can't take those feelings as the bad thing that's going to happen when you're doing exposures.
Speaker 1:But I made it through, yeah, and if she had taken my bowl, I've been real upset.
Speaker 2:And I look, I cooked this, I cooked this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's the thing.
Speaker 2:as a partner, yeah, oh, that sounds good. Yeah, and as a partner, that's a very and we'll get to this, I think, a little later too. That's a helpful thing to do is not live according to your partner's OCD, not follow all of their fears.
Speaker 1:But when we talk about from a relationship perspective, that's really hard because sometimes I feel like I'm punishing her. It feels really uncomfortable or I feel like I'm abandoning her yeah. When I'm also like, but I also don't feel like I can feed this right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a really, really tough position to be in, because our natural impulse is to try to make things better. Okay, like this freaks you out, I'll stop doing it, yeah.
Speaker 1:Let me reassure you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, yeah. Let me reassure you Because we want to be supportive partners and it's really hard that the wonderful impulse that we have ends up being something the OCD can sometimes use as fuel. And I mean so. There is also still not all reassurance is necessarily like a compulsive behavior and you can still provide comfort to the person, but it does yeah, I want to validate. It does feel really uncomfortable, it feels wrong like a bad partner to be, like okay, that freaks you out, I'm still going to do it.
Speaker 1:So we'll talk about treatment for OCD and we've talked about a little bit, but more later. But I do have to make this joke about Kaylin. I was asking about OCD treatment one time and she's like the sadist in me really enjoys OCD treatment and I was like, oh, what is OCD treatment and statism? This sounds fun and kinky. It was not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think most people find it, yeah, sexy.
Speaker 1:But how you said it? I was like oh, like, damn, kaelin statism is coming out, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:To work well with eating disorders and with OCD, you have to be fairly comfortable being with people when they are very uncomfortable and encouraging them. You can never force an adult to do anything, but encouraging them to do things that are uncomfortable and sometimes I'll like my. Understandably, my clients are like you're making me do this and living with the perception that you're making them do something they really do not want to do. So having a little bit of it is enjoyable for me to watch them come out the other side and be like, oh, was that so bad? Now, Not to minimize, my people are very brave. They've done a lot of really brave work, Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, it's just so funny. What's interesting about it is it's so different than how I practice, because I don't do Od work, but I, when I talk about sex therapy, I am very careful not to quote, unquote make anyone do anything because of that consent issue, right with sex, and so I encourage people to schedule intimacy together and, but I'm very quick to say this doesn't mean sex, this means scheduling time to open, open up and explore the possibility of non-sexual or sexual intimacy and touch. So it's just so interesting. I feel like you're gonna do this, yeah, and meanwhile I'm like so, yeah, like, schedule an hour to like be open and see what happens and um, yeah, just so, it's so, it's funny. So tell me. So we've talked about OCD as a whole. Tell me what is relationship OCD and explain subtypes to me so subtypes of OCD in general.
Speaker 1:So OCD because the DSM doesn't talk about subtypes.
Speaker 2:No, I think about OCD kind of as a way that the brain metabolizes anxiety, because I've noticed that it seems to follow OCD. Kind of as a way that the brain metabolizes anxiety, because I've noticed that it seems to follow that pattern, kind of really no matter what the anxiety is about. For my clients that have OCD, I have this thought that feels very sticky, that feels very distressing and I have to do something to get rid of it. However, a lot of the times OCD falls into certain themes. So there's stuff like harm OCD, which is what I mentioned about with the knife, like I am going to harm myself or someone else and I'm terrified of that possibility. I do all kinds of things to make sure that doesn't happen. Or there's responsibility OCD Everything that could possibly go wrong would be my fault if I fail to prevent it or I somehow caused it to happen. There's contamination is probably like the best known one.
Speaker 1:I feel like that's what everyone thinks OCD is is just like contamination.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I'm going to get sick. I think other people are going to get sick or this thing is going to hurt me somehow.
Speaker 1:I like the language you use of metabolizing, how our brain metabolizes it, like that makes a lot of sense. So what is relationship OCD? So relationship.
Speaker 2:OCD is intrusive thoughts and compulsions focused on a person's intimate relationships. A lot of the time, this is going to be like their romantic relationship or primary partnership, but it can present in other ways too, it can look. It can be about the relationship between a parent and child, it can be about friendships or even about, like the relationship that someone who's religious has with their God.
Speaker 1:I haven't thought about it that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have not personally seen that one yet. Ocd is basically what if is the question that drives all of OCD. And so what ifs? In terms of relationship, ocd can be a lot of different things. Is this the right person? For me, that's a pretty common one. What if I have a soulmate out there?
Speaker 1:and it's not my current partner.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah yeah, that's a big one. Am I attracted enough to this person? Is this person X enough for me? What if I should not be in this relationship on being a different one? Or what if I'm never going to live up to my partner's past partners? What if they're always comparing me with someone else in there? I mean, you can go wild with it.
Speaker 1:I think it might be easiest if I walk through a couple of examples.
Speaker 2:So relationship OCD can also be focused on the person themselves and kind of like the relationship, or it can be focused on the partner, so one that might be focused on the relationship. Let's say that you've got someone who is newly engaged and finds themselves like ruminating on is my partner the one? Is this really the one for me? Like, should I really be marrying this person? Is there someone else out there? So they might find themselves they'll be thinking about that question a lot. They might be internally checking like do I love this person as much as I love this other person in my life? Or the sex that I had? Do I love them in the same way? Am I sexually as compatible with them or emotionally as compatible? I'm taking lots of online quizzes. Online quizzes can be very can be kryptonite for people with OCD.
Speaker 2:It can definitely be compulsive behavior. So I'm going over and over again like is this the right person for me? Is this the one? How do you know this person's the one? Researching, checking? You can just ask Jack to.
Speaker 1:PT and see what happens. Yeah, yes, you can ask.
Speaker 2:There are all new ways to compulse, so it's an exciting new world out there. But just yeah, like going through this question over and over and over again asking friends reassurance seeking which we'll get into a little bit more but it's like kind of repetitively asking someone else the OCD question and waiting to get a different answer back. Another example that's maybe more focused on the partner could be sometimes people find themselves ruminating on like is my partner blank enough for me? So let's say I'm worried my partner's not interesting enough. I compare their hobbies to the hobbies of my friend's partners and like, how interesting, how bored am I when I'm listening to them. Like, if I find a moment where we're having a conversation and I start to feel a little bit bored, I'm going to think about that and think about that and think about that and be like is this a sign that this isn't right for me? Is this a sign that I'm not interested in this relationship, that they are boring and just over and over again chewing on it?
Speaker 2:And people can also have relationship OCD without having, like, a partner with them, and I've noticed this with some of my clients when they go into dating. There's a lot of measures, there's kind of a lot of. It's not just are there red flags here, but yeah, trying to find a red flag, almost Like I'm thinking about. You know, I'm swiping on the apps and I look at this particular person. I'm like, but maybe what if my parents hate that they went to University of South Carolina my dad's a big Clemson fan, for instance and then you know we won't be able to get past that and we'll always argue at family dinners and, like you know, you can mentally rehearse a whole scenario and getting rid of potential partners really quickly for perceived flaws, because it feels like it'll become such a problem down the road, even if it's not a problem in the moment.
Speaker 1:Okay, so how would that look, maybe with friendships?
Speaker 2:OCD, a lot of the time will interact with our past experiences. Say that you had an experience where you were in a friendship that was really unhealthy, was really unkind, and you're kind of watching that person for signs that they're going to do this thing again. Does this trait this time that we disagreed mean that they're going to start screaming at me? They have this thing in common with a friend that used to bully me Like.
Speaker 1:does that mean that they're also going to that friend abandoned me that one time and ghosted me, and now this friend will probably do the same thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it can be like. Even as I'm talking about this, I'm like I realize it can sound really difficult to distinguish from like normal anxiety, which is, I think, why relationship OCD doesn't always seem like a real thing, because it does just sound a lot of the time like friendship anxiety. I think that it's the way that we deal with those questions. So the questions can be really similar between OCD and kind of like generalized or garden variety anxiety.
Speaker 2:But someone with OCD is going to that thought is going to be really sticky, really hard to get rid of that specific individual thought. They will spend a lot of time thinking about it. They will do things to try to check or prevent whatever that fear thing is from happening. So, like I'll ask other people like do you think this trait reminds so-and-so, do they remind you of this person? Is it okay for this person to be my best friend? Or it's just like we get very hung up on the specifics and very rigid Compared to other anxiety. O, hung up on the specifics and very rigid compared to other anxiety.
Speaker 1:Ocd is very cyclical and very rigid and very sticky that makes sense, and I think in the cases of OCD that I've seen personally and professionally, there's also that morality piece to it of not are you a good partner, but are you a good partner, right, or oh, did this seem bad? If that seems bad, what does that mean? For me, that means I'm a bad person, right, like that, and just so. When I hear like rigid morals, it's like is this religious trauma or is this OCD?
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, that overlap is fun, because fundamentalist religions or black and white religions, and OCD is a very messy combination and can definitely exacerbate things for a lot of people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense, and something you said earlier is that relationship OCD doesn't exist by itself very often.
Speaker 2:Yeah, usually it's a very common form of OCD among people who have OCD actually. But at least in talking to the other OCD therapists I've known it's not very often that's presented in isolation. Honestly, I don't know how often most types of OCD present in isolation Like I'm just worried about contamination, I have nothing else, I'm just worried about responsibility and I have nothing else. Usually it'll kind of branch off into a few different things.
Speaker 1:I don't know why whack-a-mole is so important to me today, but I'm like, yes, this is going to fit, we're going to make it work. Who knows why? No, that makes a lot of sense. I'm curious to what other subtype do you see with relationship, ocd, more.
Speaker 2:OCD around morality slash ethics, I think, can sometimes intertwine. So that's, I am very afraid that if I do the wrong thing, I am a fundamentally bad person. If I do the wrong thing, something really horrible is going to happen. I have to really check my intentions around doing things. I'm afraid that I am this common one secretly manipulating everyone around me into thinking that I'm a good person when I actually am a horrible person. And if I was not in tight control of my actions, I would do horrible things. Oh, it's a fun one. Oh, I do that.
Speaker 1:I'm a fraud and everyone's going to find out. But to be fair, so I don't have. Ocd Quote Big Bang Theory. My mother had me tested. I had myself tested, actually.
Speaker 2:But that idea of like I'm a fraud and everyone's eventually gonna find out I'm just making this shit up as I go, yeah, so I think I think that can sometimes overlap in relationships is like am I being a good partner or am I this horrible selfish person? Am I with manipulating support?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, yeah or well the ocd can definitely come up with some. Am I this?
Speaker 2:horrible, selfish person. Am I manipulating With no evidence to support that? Yeah or well, the OCD can definitely come up with some evidence, right. How strong that is is definitely up for debate. Am I secretly manipulating my partner? And actually this is really bad and I'm an abusive person.
Speaker 1:It almost sounds like gaslighting yourself.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah, it does. Yeah, yeah, I think.
Speaker 2:OCD yeah, it does, yeah, yeah, I think that's what's real, what's not real what we practice is trying to put the thought in a corner and trying to like if I didn't like. Ocd wants me to dive super deep into all of this and question everything and what. It wants me to follow it down its little rabbit hole. So if I stick in the corner and just try to live my life, what is it that happens? How do I know if a person's a good person or not? When I apply it to other people outside myself, most of the people I've worked with the OCD is primarily, like you know, I brought up partner focused OCD, but most of the people I've worked with it's primarily focused on themselves, their actions, their choices, their thoughts. So if my definition of a good person for another person, like for everyone else, is, you know, follows X and then I live my life and see if other people treat me the way that other people tend to treat good people that's evidence.
Speaker 2:I can take, and then I don't have to try to argue with OCD. Arguing with OCD once you no longer believe it is fruitless.
Speaker 1:Okay, so almost that like diagnosis itself can be really powerful. Yeah, just knowing what it is can be really real?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not that I really believe this, it's that I'm really afraid that this might happen.
Speaker 1:That makes sense when we talk about relationship. Ocd. Something I've listed on my little outline is avoiding triggers. Is that something that's recommended, not recommended? Like romance movies, love stories, social media oh my gosh, social media paint these picture perfect relationships and I'll have clients that'll be like, oh, do I not love my partner because it doesn't look like what I see on Instagram.
Speaker 2:You know, I would actually say that that is something we want to. Eventually, the goal is definitely going to be not to do that. I haven't had anybody present with something so severe in the relationship that it's been advised that we avoid triggers Early in treatment. That can sometimes be helpful is if we just we limit our exposure to the things that frighten us, so that way I'm not flooded all the time and my brain can calm down enough that I can learn from these experiences.
Speaker 2:But avoiding I mean avoiding romantic movies and love stories could be a compulsion in and of itself, is I'm really afraid that if I listen to Taylor Swift I'm a big Swifty um, I'm going to think that my relationship isn't as good as the what she thinks about, and that I'm going to think that my relationship isn't as good as what she thinks about and that I'm going to want to break up with my partner. So I'm just going to get around your first compulsion, the first compulsion being like I'm going to check and compare and see, like in my head, how closely these things match up and then to try to avoid that I'm going to avoid. And that's the next layer of compulsion.
Speaker 1:Do people avoid getting in relationships?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think you can. I, anecdotally, I want to be kind of careful to differentiate my experience from the literature, but I've noticed a lot of people with OCD being having this kind of fear that I'm going to be trapped in a relationship, like the idea that I can leave the relationship if it's not a fit for me doesn't seem to occur, and so they will like kind of pick apart flaws about a potential partner and pull away and like spend a lot of time analyzing. I shoot themselves in the foot, yeah About, yeah, pursuing a relationship because I have this fear. What if I get in there and I'm actually I'm wrong about this person and I shouldn't be here?
Speaker 1:And it's interesting because at the very beginning of the episode we were talking about choice and like really empowering clients to recognize like they have choices and supporting them in that you have a choice to leave the relationship or stay, and not making a choice is also a choice, right? So really they have all the power. I guess it's just finding that source of power.
Speaker 2:That's why I like working with OCD is it tells you that you don't have a choice. Compulsions are such intensely strong urges it feels like I have to do this or I will die, and it robs people of choice, of the opportunity to live their lives the way that like they really want to or really believe in, and so that's yeah. What we work on is taking back that power is I don't actually have to listen to that compulsion. I can choose to do that behavior if I want to, but I don't have to. I don't have no other option. I can choose to sit in this relationship for another week and see how I feel about it for another week and see how I feel about it.
Speaker 1:So and I hear how you're supporting the person with OCD I'm curious about the impact on the partner right? So we focus on relationship as a whole, and the beautiful thing about Kaylin is Kaylin also does relationship therapy. Yes, come see me. I love couples. We haven't thrown a thropple at her yet, so if you want to be the first, let me know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I thrown a thruple at her yet, so if you want to be the first, let me. Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna need a bigger couch.
Speaker 1:yeah, we just need bigger furniture in general. I get it. We're working on it. I love my swively chairs, though. They're fun.
Speaker 2:She has chairs that are a um what fabric is? They're very mod.
Speaker 1:They're kind of like like um velvety yes, and the problem is, when you sit down and get up, you can see a perfect butt print.
Speaker 2:I never noticed that until you pointed that out to me.
Speaker 1:I've been in that office for several months and not noticed it and now all you can see is butt prints, and so it's really comical to like anyway, butt prints, but how do you support the partner in that? Because that's going to feel really shitty of like, wow, my partner doesn't know if they're attracted to me, or my partner doesn't know if I'm worth it, or whatever that narrative may be, and they may not even know it's happening. But, like, how do you support the partner in that?
Speaker 2:Knowledge is huge power there. If we can put things where they belong, that can be really reassuring to the partner and really helpful to the person with OCD. So if we can label it is not actually that she isn't attracted to you, it's that she is terrified that she might not be attracted to you, it's this intrusive thought and the possibility feels that scary, that really helps because most of the time I think because relationship OCD isn't really well known or understood, like when partners hear these things from their partner with OCD, they believe it. Oh my God, she really doesn't. Actually she really doesn't want me, or she thinks I'm going to hurt her, or we're not good together and I don't get it because we have great sex, because I have never even raised my voice at her or I've never like we seem like a great couple and we get that feedback from people all the time. So it's often really confusing and kind of befuddling to the partner. I'm like I don't know where you're getting this, I don't know how this came up and I also.
Speaker 2:Partners usually fall into the trap, before this is known, of reassuring their partner and it becomes very exhausting for the partner without OCD to rehash the same fears over and over again. I'm afraid you don't love me. I promise you I love you. Another couple of days later, I don't think you love me. No, I really love you over and over again.
Speaker 1:It's really demoralizing, because the partner feels like why don't you believe me Right? Why is this not enough?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yep, if it was as good as I believe it is, then she believed me, but she doesn't. It can be really tough, so just naming and acknowledging that can be really helpful for supporting partners I'm a big fan of. If you have a particular thing that you're dealing with or that your partner is dealing with you, two should not be the only two people who know about it. It's really helpful to have other people in your life. You're probably going to have other people in your life. You're probably going to have to do some. If you're the partner listening to this and your partner is OCD, you're probably going to need to do some education with your loved ones, because a lot of the time, the feedback that partners might get from loved ones is dump them. They're crazy. They shouldn't be saying all. If they're saying all this, it's because they really don't love you. It's because they really don't feel good in the relationship. What's that?
Speaker 1:expression that, like drunk words, are sober thoughts right. So it's this idea that if we say it, it's rooted in some sort of truth.
Speaker 2:I mean what's really, really harmful for OCD and makes conventional relationship wisdom so hard to apply here is this idea that if I have to ask, then it says something about the relationship, or it's true. I feel like you can see in, like you know, however many blog posts about love or something like that, if you're questioning it, that's because there's a question there and that's because it's not really there, and that is just… which?
Speaker 1:is affirming OCD thought.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm trying to think of the most flammable thing, because I'm like gasoline isn't flammable enough to use as a comparison for what that sentiment is to relationship OCD. But yeah, it really. So it really fucks with people in both halves of the relationship there and can lead to you don't always get great feedback from your family and friends because they're wondering why you're in this relationship. So, being able to name and educate your people about it and then being able to be like God this is like frustrating Because it is. It's hard for both of you to be in it and it's okay to acknowledge as a partner that it's hard for you too, and being able to go seek support for that and have that people to vent to, people to talk about it with, is really helpful.
Speaker 1:I think something, too, is encouraging boundaries right Like I don't want to hear your doubts. It makes me uncomfortable, it makes me feel like I'm doing something wrong. Can you talk to someone else about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that could yep. Yeah, because you do not need to be the sole sponge of your partners and I think sometimes because partner, like a romantic partnership, can be so much more intimate, so much closer and there's that kind of like merging, it's really easy for you to become the sponge of the OCD fears. I did hear this great suggestion in a training the other day where this guy had family members have like an intrusive thoughts book that they kept in the dining room so that when the family member who was struggling with OCD came to another person and asked something, it would go in the book. So there would be the question and then the answer and if the person came back and tried to reassurance seek and ask again, they were told to go to the book. So you know, if you're, for instance, you're the partner who doesn't have OCD and your partner keeps coming to you over and over again, I'm worried, we're not sexually compatible. You have a great sex life. You write that down and put it in the book. You know we are sexually compatible because of xyz and you go about your day. You're like, all right, go check the book. You know we are sexually compatible because of X, y, z and you go about your day. You're like all right, go check the book, or sometimes it can help just to like gently tell your partner this is your OCD talking.
Speaker 2:We had this conversation a few days ago. This is I think this is OCD. I don't think this is you and because of that I'm not going to have this conversation with you, because it's not helpful. What would be helpful to do instead? You cannot think your way out of OCD. The only and again I carve out the only caveat is if I believe it, then it's helpful to talk to a trained therapist. So I don't believe it so much and I can detach from it After that point. Thinking your way through it, trying to argue with it, trying to think yourself out of it none of it's going to work.
Speaker 1:But it does work with anxiety, which is why that's so confusing Because, again, my partners talked about before how she felt like she was being gaslit by therapists for so long. Yeah, because they were doing that right, they were really exploring the thought and the reframe and all that, and she's like they're making me crazier. Yeah, really the answer was she has OCD.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a hard thing to, I mean, and it also I think as a therapist it can feel kind of wrong, it feels invalidating to shut OCD down and be like, nope, that's your OCD talking, I'm not going to have a conversation with it. And it's hard to diagnose OCD Like I have felt. I can think of two cases in my career where I look back and went, wow, I did them a disservice because there was probably a 90% chance they had OCD and I didn't see it because we don't really get training in OCD. No, I mean honestly, like it hides. Even people I know that are experts.
Speaker 2:I have a friend who primarily treats also primarily treats OCD and eating disorders. She had somebody for years and then kind of like figured out and she's someone who knows it's that when it doesn't present the way that we expect, when compulsions are really subtle or really like mimic, normal behaviors, it's really hard to detect and pick up on. So you are not alone in having that experience. Yeah, I've definitely. There have been some people that I've seen for months, even years, and then was like, oh, maybe this is going on with you, even years, and then was like, oh, maybe this is going on with you, especially if there are other kind of presenting issues that are on top of that Right, make it hard to see the bottom.
Speaker 1:And why are they coming to see you, caitlin? Because I feel like part of so for me. I see so many neurodivergent humans, so when someone that's not neurodivergent comes to see me, it's like why are you here? But really the answer is you were called to me. In a way, there was something about my own neurodivergence that spoke to your neurodivergence.
Speaker 2:And then we realized six months later yeah, you have ADHD, that's what that is Right Like. Why are you here?
Speaker 1:This just felt like the vibe, okay. And then we realized, yeah, the vibe is. You're also neurodivergent.
Speaker 2:It's funny. My last place was very clearly for eating disorders was in the name and it was funny how many people would call in not for an eating disorder and then a month in, two months in we're like oh so that is there. Just kidding, yeah, I think, even if we're not ready to admit it to ourselves yet. I think sometimes, following that question, I am not sure if I might have this, and so I'm going to, just just in case, talk to somebody who actually knows a lot about it.
Speaker 1:It can be helpful Follow that impulse that happens a lot with sex. Like people will be like I'm coming to talk about my relationship or I'm coming to talk about my anxiety and then really they have sexual dysfunction or just sex-related questions and they want to talk about but they're setting the scene.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like I'm getting the vibe first. Let me not start with the really hard, scary, tender stuff.
Speaker 1:just yet Absolutely Because I feel like I have looked at people before and been like why are you here? Because why you say you're here is very different than what's happening right now so why are you here? No, that's really interesting. So what modalities do you?
Speaker 2:use for OCD. So the gold standard treatment for OCD is called exposure and response prevention, and so a little bit what I talked about earlier. We're going to identify what the fear is and then we're going to face it repeatedly and at a level that's tolerable for you. We're going to go gently.
Speaker 1:That's where your sadism comes out.
Speaker 2:Yes, that is where I'm like all right, we're going to stand on these coals. We got three more minutes on these coals, hang out, let your feet get toasty. Erp. So ERP, like as a modality, is very structured and very formal. So it looks like first kind of defining levels of anxiety, because it's you, you're not going to learn if you're too freaked out to learn.
Speaker 2:So when I do exposures, I try to, we try to keep our anxiety below a seven out of 10, most of the time we practice that and we practice nailing out real specifics. So, for instance, I've worked with someone that is very afraid of contamination with food, and so we've set, we figured out, what are the dimensions that make this easier or less easy for me. If the food has been out for a while, if it has this certain texture, if it's part of a certain food group these are all things that make it better or worse. And then we also figure out what are our compulsions. What am I doing to keep myself safe during this, whether that's I avoid it, I spray everything with Lysol when it comes in, or whatever the compulsion is, and we create a plan around that. So we're going to gradually ramp up. We're going to start with kind of the thing that feels the easiest I'm going to.
Speaker 2:I had somebody who was really concerned about bodily fluids, that had a classmate that seemed to have a lot of bodily fluids going on. I felt unfortunate for that. It was an unfortunate situation for both of those students. But we started with like okay, can you sit in the seat, two seats down from that person, and stay there for the class period and if that's too much, like you get up and go to the bathroom midway through or something like that. And then the next week we're going to try, you're going to sit next to them. The next week we're going to try like you brush against their stuff accidentally or something like that. You kind of like bump up gradually.
Speaker 2:You do it without doing the compulsions so you can like a science experiment, see, does the thing I'm really afraid of come true here? Do I get sick? And it's helpful to identify what is the thing I'm afraid of, because a lot of the time OCD kind of, it's this vague sense of dread. I'm not really sure what I'm afraid of. I'm afraid that I'm going to freak out and that, or I'm going to just like feel really terrible, and probably two of those things are going to happen. I am going to freak out and feel terrible, but I survive it. My brain is not permanently broken, covid, really threw contamination, oh my God.
Speaker 1:Permanently broken COVID really threw contamination, oh my God.
Speaker 2:It was so bad.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's still still bad. Normally I would know these things are true right now. I.
Speaker 2:I can't confirm that Now. I mean that was it was very unhelpful for OCD because it took what a lot of people had learned and made all of their fears come true. It is actually dangerous for me to stand next to a person that I don't know is sick or not. Yeah, yeah, COVID was a, really I am. I am honestly a little grateful that I was still in school when I was going home. Yeah, I bet yeah, and I mostly was mostly just had eating disorders at that point.
Speaker 1:So it's so interesting you talked about earlier that OCD has a lot of like what ifs and I feel like that's part of my style of therapy, like I use a lot of acceptance, commitment therapy in my practice and so if a client says, well, this person probably hates me, my response is always okay, what if they hate you?
Speaker 2:That's funny, actually, because that's a pretty useful adjunct to ERP. So ERP is like the. This is the thing that's going to stop me. Yeah, but acceptance commitment therapy is really helpful, and it's really helpful if your OCD primarily happens in your head and isn't behaviorally expressed as much. Okay, what if you are a terrible human being?
Speaker 1:What then? What do we do now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Okay, you're not attracted to your partner.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but the sex is good. Like you're telling me, you enjoy the sex the sex yeah, so okay, what do we do now? Yeah, what if? What's the worst thing that?
Speaker 2:could happen.
Speaker 1:Okay, I do a lot of what's the what's the worst thing that can happen. What's the worst thing can happen, like okay, now, as we reflect, let's think is that a reasonable worst thing? Right, because you can come up with someone's going to drop an anvil from the sky and smite me like, okay, the chances of that happening are slim, so what's the most reasonable? Like what's the worst reasonable thing that could happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:They break up with me. What would you do? It would suck. It would suck.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't want to validate, you know it's. Yeah, any of these things that would happen. It would be distressing With OCD, you do want to be careful because that, what is the worst thing that can happen, can turn into a compulsion. It can be a mental rehearsal of like, okay, the worst thing happened, here's how I would deal with it, but then this worst thing happened, here's how I would deal with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I feel like if you do anything too much, yep, I think if you, I define compulsions to clients as if I have this feeling that I have to do this thing, I don't have a choice. Bad things will happen if I don't. That's let's. Let's see. If that's a compulsion, that's usually a good sign and it can be a lot of different behavior. It could be a lot of behaviors that would be pretty innocuous in other settings. It's really normal actually to seek reassurance from your partner. It's very healthy and I actually do encourage my clients with OCD, even relationship OCD, that it is okay for you to still go get reassurance from your partner. It becomes compulsive if I can't be soothed, if I'm doing it over and over again, if I'm on the same topic over and over again, but just going and being like hey, I felt kind of weird about this thing that you said. I just want to check that this is what you meant, it's okay.
Speaker 1:Once. Once, I'm just kidding. Yeah, but once, yeah. How do you like would you suggest couples therapy for people that have one with OCD and without yeah?
Speaker 2:I mean, I think if you're running into I'm having a lot of issues with this and it's affecting the relationship, then yeah, Couples could be a helpful adjunct to individual therapy. I will say I want to be couples. Therapy kind of comes in and we treat it's a joint problem. Ocd is not a joint problem. It isits or it's it's. It's in the person who is struggling with the OCD and it can still affect the relationship.
Speaker 2:There can still be things the partner is doing that might not be helpful or they might just be distressed so we can talk about. All right, let's practice. How can we approach this in a way that, as a couple, that feels good for both of us? So so you know, maybe somebody early in treatment their partner learned that they're supposed to shut them down when they start reassurance seeking. But the partner is starting to feel like I feel like you're invalidating me, like I'm not allowed to ask anything of you, and we try to figure out okay, let's look at a balance and let's look at if it's been going on a long time. Sometimes the partner without OCD can feel like that they've been carrying a burden for a long time and feel kind of resentful and have a hard time leaning on their partner for care, and so we look at kind of rebalancing that. How can we experiment with letting your partner care for you now that they're getting the support that they need and they can't do this?
Speaker 1:And so, of course, I would imagine that when you see that relationship therapist making sure they're OCD informed, because if not, yeah, that could take a whole like that could do a lot of damage. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I I one time I I have not had any couples here that we're oh nope, that's not true. I lied. I try to. I do try to screen if I'm noticing like either somebody's reporting some other kind of OCD in their intake or if I'm noticing we're having the same conversation over and over again, or I see that, like I, one of the partners seems convinced and I have no idea what they're talking about or where this is coming from, and the other partner doesn't have any idea where this is coming from. That's usually a cue for me of like all right, let me just see if maybe that might be going on yeah, it's interesting when that happens, when you walk into a session and you have no idea what's happening like they are big mad about this thing and you're like what has happened?
Speaker 1:we're having that emotional reaction and you're like this doesn't match. Yeah, right, like what on earth? Yeah, like it takes a minute and usually takes a session or two to process of like. Okay, when they're back, like hey, what the fuck was that?
Speaker 2:yeah, you're probably. Yeah, yeah, exactly it is. And it's like we know that they're not reacting to their partner. They're reacting to something else, whether that's OCD or whether that's like trauma from a past relationship or attachment stuff, but but we don't always know what that thing is. No, but something has fluid, yeah but I don't know, and you're kind of sitting there like what on earth.
Speaker 1:Yes, I have looked at someone before and said is this really what we're arguing about? Like I just want to clarify, and it's like, yeah, it's like I have to check, and of course I check in a really snarky way because I'm like, I'm so I think sometimes that, like in couples therapy, I think that's what you have to do.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it's like we're arguing about the toaster and it's not really.
Speaker 1:It's never about the toaster, but let's just, let's just take a second and realize we're arguing about the toaster. Reality check helps of like. Okay, what's under the toaster? Yeah, what's under the toaster, because, damn, I am not sitting here for an hour I know you're all talking about the toaster.
Speaker 2:Someone who calls it a nothing burger is what one of my clients calls those bites which I was like. I love that. I'm going to take that. That's great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because it's like is it really about this? I feel like, so that happens with my kids. Is they argue about something? And I'm like what we're not really arguing about? Who touched the door last?
Speaker 2:Like we're just not arguing about this. No, it's a power struggle. It's which sibling is dominant.
Speaker 1:Oh gosh, and mine will fight for the death. Jeez, my six-year-old, not my six-year-old, my four-year-old. Yesterday, as I was taking him to school, he starts singing his ABCs. And I'm in the middle of like eating my breakfast on the go and he's like Mama, sing your ABCs. And I said I'm like mouthful, I'm like mouthful, I'm going to go eating, Sing the ABCs. So I finally finished eating. He goes are you done? Can you sing the ABCs? And I said yes, and he goes do you even know your ABCs? I took everything and I'm like bitch.
Speaker 1:Please Do you even know your ABCs. I am finishing my second master's degree, but I may not know my ABCs. I mean, you could be illiterate, we just don't even know. You know what I could be? And then he started singing his a little bit backwards.
Speaker 2:Oh, can you do this? No off Wow.
Speaker 1:But what's funny is he would do the. He'd go F, a, b, c, d, e, a, b, c, d and like just sing it backward. But it was just. It was really funny. But do you even know your ABCs? My God? Nothing will humble you like children, that's for sure. So what are some resources that you would encourage for people? And we can also put things in show notes too, if you have links and things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, gosh darn. There was a book that a friend of mine recommended that I cannot remember at this moment. So there are some great OCD organizations that have lots of materials for people who deal with it and their loved ones Know OCD or NOCD is a good one, and they also offer free CEUs for professionals Highly recommend. The International OCD Foundation is also a great resource and does a lot of advocacy work, does a lot of educational work, trying to think of where else. There are a number of OCD specialists in town, so definitely reach out to me if that's something you're interested in or looking for Kaylin has like two or three spots.
Speaker 1:So if you are in North Carolina and need a therapist, let us know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or I can help you find somebody else, if it. You know, I'm all about like Connecting. Yes, it should be a good fit, you should feel comfortable and there are lots of great clinicians that work with this. I mean, part of it is, I think working with it is just a bit of a paradigm shift too. It's like how do I validate a person without Validating their thoughts? Yes, yep, yeah, which can be a challenge. It, yeah, yeah, which can be a challenge. It's kind of a mindfuck, yeah, yeah. But the thing is, and the biggest part of OCD treatment is, we are not our thoughts. They are things that some of them are conscious, some of them aren't, but they don't define us.
Speaker 1:I love that Mm-hmm. I love that Mm-hmm. Well, if you want support or need anything, you are welcome to email us at podcast at validloveorg. Anything, you are welcome to email us at podcast at valid loveorg. And if you have any thoughts or feelings and just let us know, we would love feedback. Podcast at validorg. Now the next part of the podcast is tidbits. Leah does a song. I'm not doing the song, Y'all are just going to have to wait for Leah.
Speaker 1:But I wanted to talk about sexual OCD, which is really not super fun, yes, but like I've seen it come up, especially in sex therapy, where there are times where I'm like this. So something I talk about with clients is this idea of like desire versus arousal. So arousal my body is physically turned on versus desire is something I desire, something that I really seek out, that then turns me on, and so I've seen clients who are aroused by this random thing, but they actually have no desire for it. And it's confusing because, as a kink therapist, right, like you have a desire, yeah, I'm going to support you, yeah, you should get that flogger. Like, yeah, you should explore that kink, you should do that thing.
Speaker 1:But they're like but I don't actually want to do it, and that's been like a what, and so I feel like I have to like jump down this rabbit hole with them. Why do you not want to do it? Is it coming from a place of shame or is it something you're genuinely not desiring, but your body is like experiencing arousal? For so it's. It's been an interesting learning curve for me as a sex therapist. When OCD comes into play, I'm curious tell us about sexual OCD.
Speaker 2:Sexual OCD is focused on sexuality and I think a related thing to bring up is pedophilia OCD, which is its own very common, very taboo kind of theme of OCD. So it can be around stuff like I'm afraid that I'm gay. I have never actually wanted to have a relationship or a sexual interaction with someone of the same sex. But what if I am? What if I'm actually? Or the reverse for gay partners can be what if I'm straight? Um, bi and pansexuals or um you guys have, it'll be more focused on the partner. I'll be more like what if I'm never actually going to be satisfied by this partner that I have, if I'm monogamous and I actually want the other thing which?
Speaker 2:is a fun one what else it can also be. I've noticed sometimes like it can overlap with harm in like, uh, for people who are into kink, for instance, like I'm a predator, yes, for instance, like I'm a predator, yes, yeah, I'm really afraid that I'm a predator and that can overlap with pedophilia, ocd. I'm worried that I'm attracted to children because I've had some kind of intrusive thought of that's a sexual thought about a child and so what does this mean about me? And there can be a lot of arousal. Checking can be a compulsion in that instance of like yeah, like, am I experiencing blood flow to my genitals?
Speaker 2:Is my heart racing faster? Am I feeling flushed? And you know more about these studies? I'm sure than I do, but I've seen plenty of research that, like, a variety of situations could result in some kind of arousal that has nothing to do with like I'm actually mentally aroused.
Speaker 1:I talk about tickling right, like if we are tickled we will laugh, right. Sometimes our bodies respond a certain way to things, just like laughing to tickling. That doesn't mean you find it funny, that doesn't mean you're enjoying it. It is literally a bodily reaction to something that's happening. I hear that a lot when people have orgasms and sexual assault. Yeah, right, yeah, that's what I was thinking of. It's tickling Right, you laughed. That doesn't mean you find it funny.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the nervous system has been affected in this way and it is responding in its pre-programmed way, but it doesn't mean that I'm having the subjective experience of I want this Right. So for anyone out there who is listening to this because most people will take years to bring it up to a therapist If you have had a sexual thought about a child and you felt horror and disgust in response to that thought, you are not a pedophile. Just so you know. I don't know where I was going after that.
Speaker 1:I thought it was really important for you to say that.
Speaker 2:I don't blame doubt. Well, I think it is something that a lot more people struggle with, I think, than we'll talk about, because it's so terrifying. It's like the possibility that that thing's right of pretty much anything is. I mean, a lot of people come to my office and are terrified that I'm going to call the authorities on them. It's definitely a form of OCD that deserves some awareness raising.
Speaker 1:That makes sense, especially because when we think about what makes someone a bad person, that's a pretty like.
Speaker 2:That's a pretty, pretty high up there, that's pretty black and white like pedophilia.
Speaker 1:There is no context that that can ever be anything but bad.
Speaker 2:Yeah that acting on that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So that's, that's the worst thing I can have an intrusive thought on. Yeah, yeah, so that's, that's an important one.
Speaker 2:What's the worst thing I can have an intrusive thought on and then like, well, and OCD that is primarily obsessive is kind of what will? What the DSM calls ones that have much more mental compulsions or it's like involves a lot more ruminating is usually wrapped around a person's values, the things that are most important to them. So people who, for instance, are very like compassionate, very empathetic and afraid of hurting others, are really likely to have harm OCD. People who have very strong moral beliefs are really likely to have moral, ethical ones. People who are really religious will have scrupulosity OCD, which is I'm afraid that I'm doing something sacrilegious or blasphemous, that I am doing my religion wrong. And people who really love kids or love caretaking are likely to have that I'm afraid that I'm secretly a child predator.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so essentially OCD attacks your value system. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I'm trying to get back to your point about sexual OCD. No, yeah, I'm trying to think of what there are like other kinds of ways that that can come up with sexuality.
Speaker 1:You know what I am curious? So we always I say always like we're not forgetful and do forget it. What are you reading these days?
Speaker 2:I have been making multiple attempts to actually get through polysecure, because every time I actually pick it up and like start reading, I'm like, oh, this is so cool, this is really interesting. But then I put it down and I'm just like like I don't want to read this workbook, I want to go read like fairy smut again. But then I don't do that either because I'm like you don't have time to go read fairy smut, because you will fall into a black hole and get nothing done. And so said I, I sit and freeze and then I read the news.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's not good. That's more productive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's the plan, yeah.
Speaker 1:I am actually in between books right now, but I'm a part of a book club and the March read is Kiss of the Basilisk, which has been re-released. It was like self-published and then the publisher picked it up and they re-released it because the original name was Split and Swallow and the rumor that I heard is that Target essentially said, yeah, we're not carrying that.
Speaker 2:I can understand You're walking your kid through to go get a Barbie, Mommy what's this book Split? And.
Speaker 1:Swallow. So it's now Kiss of the Basilisk. And some of my book club who's never read Harry Potter was like someone said this was related to Harry Potter and I'm really paying it because I never read Harry Potter and it's like no the Basilisk was just a Harry Potter.
Speaker 2:No, because it's just a mythical snake right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, come on folks, that's way pre-dates Harry Potter, but it's just really funny. So I've not started it yet, but everyone in my book club who has read some of it have been like the smut is fast and intense, and so I'm excited to see what happens.
Speaker 2:Nice.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Love that I was going to say. I'm never reading anything practical.
Speaker 1:It's mostly just for fun.
Speaker 2:That's great. Well, I think I read somewhere that reading fiction has much greater impact on a person's language abilities than reading nonfiction.
Speaker 1:Interesting.
Speaker 2:It's associated with better language abilities.
Speaker 1:I also really hold tight to the study that says the more you cuss, the more intelligent you are. Really, again, I don't know how factual it is. I saw it somewhere and I was like you know what? I'm going to hold on to that. I'm the smartest person. Yeah, that's days.
Speaker 2:I saw it somewhere and I was like you know what I'm going to hold on to that. I'm the smartest person. Yeah, that's great. I'm going to tell my mom that. Please tell your Catholic mom that, yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes, well, it has been excellent to have you, caitlin, and. I'm sure we will have you on again in the future. But yeah, I hope you all have a great day. Thank,
