Valid Love
Discussions and interviews about all things love: Kink, Intimacy, and alternative relationships, including the relationship with yourself.
Valid Love
Freedom, Identity, Legacy: What Shapes Our Biggest Life Decision?
The cultural war between parenthood and child-free living requires more nuance and understanding of both perspectives, their joys, and their challenges.
• Different categories of people exist in this conversation: parents, child-free by choice, child-free not by choice, fence sitters, and even antinatalists
• Chapel Roan's controversial comments about motherhood being "hell" sparked debate and defensiveness from parents
• Motherhood can involve significant physical changes, identity shifts, and bring up unresolved childhood trauma
• The first five years of parenthood are statistically the unhappiest for couples, contradicting the myth that babies save marriages
• Child-free by choice people often value freedom, autonomy and need to constantly defend their decision against social pressure
• Fence sitters exist in the middle ground, considering context, partnership, and different possible life paths
• Happiness and satisfaction aren't the same thing—parents may experience less happiness but deep satisfaction
• Equity in relationships becomes crucial when children enter the picture, with fair division of visible and invisible labor
• Viewing children as separate from legacy is healthier—"I want my kids to want to be my legacy, but that's not what they are"
• The most important question isn't "Do I want kids?" but "What kind of life do I want to build and with whom?"
Email your feedback and topic ideas to podcast@validlove.org
Welcome back to Valid Love Podcast. I'm Leah.
Speaker 2:And I'm Rebecca.
Speaker 1:And today we're talking about children. Children Controversy so loaded Based on you know, the recent I never say her name right Chapel Roan, chapel Roan. Wow, I did it Excellent.
Speaker 2:It probably took me a good like three months to figure it out how to say her name, yeah, and then I started watching interviews with her and how she said it and I was like, okay, great, great, but it did take me a minute.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, today we want to talk about that controversy and why it is always so controversial when someone makes statements in the way that she did. But you know, to really explore how children I mean, they do shift the terrain of relationships, they impact sex, they impact a whole lot of things and there are so many people who fall under so many different categories. Right, you have, you know, you have parents. You have child free by choice. You just have the child free, which is not necessarily by choice. You have fence sitters that's what they call them. You have the antinatalists. There's just like a whole antinatalist.
Speaker 2:What is that that?
Speaker 1:is basically I believe it's like a philosophical standpoint that really stands on the moral ground of like it's highly unethical to procreate due to the non-consent involved in that, and like bringing a child into a world of suffering essentially Interesting, bringing a child into a world of suffering.
Speaker 2:Essentially, yeah, interesting. I know there is, I don't know if you'd say, a controversy, but a point in the news when Prince Harry said that he would only have two children because it's bad for the environment to have more than two.
Speaker 1:Oh wow, I never knew that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just thought it was interesting.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, this is definitely a loaded topic for a lot of people and I think it's really important that we today, and we as a society, really start learning how to hold a little more nuance for things in general, you know, holding space for all sides, considerations and the nuanced perspective that people are shaped by so many things and their choices are their own and that doesn't have to reflect off of like somebody or on somebody else's choices, right, like parents got really upset by what chapel roan said, and that's just like a thing that we come up against. It seems pretty frequently where parents are feeling, you know, like vilified, or maybe that's not the word I want to use. What word would you use?
Speaker 2:I mean the suggestion, right, that like one lifestyle is quote unquote better than the other, and that is such a contextual yeah, because it's all about our place in life and that when society dictates how we do things, it can be a struggle to figure out was this my choice or was this society's choice, and then dealing with the repercussions of that. But when you have children, the repercussions are a living thing, right? You don't?
Speaker 1:take. You can't take that choice back.
Speaker 2:Right, you can't say I wish I wasn't a mom. You can. And then what does that mean for your child, when they hear that?
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, so this is, you know, a really loaded tender topic. Touches on a lot of things Identity, gender, roles, freedom, biology, legacy, A lot that goes into it.
Speaker 2:There's a lot that goes into it, so walk me through and remind me what happened Basically.
Speaker 1:So I didn't listen to the podcast episode, but I believe she was on Call Her Daddy and it was just a brief. It was kind of a brief comment. That's not what the interview was about. The interview wasn't about you know her not having children, but I think the question was you know, are you still in touch with your friends from your home state, hometown, you know, before you got famous? And she made the comment basically that like no, not really, but our lives are so different. A lot of them have become parents. And she made a comment about like parenthood seeming like hell and how her old friends didn't seem like they had like life or light in their eyes anymore and they were all just like exhausted and tired and how, yeah, I believe that just like motherhood didn't seem to be a choice in which Motherhood seems miserable.
Speaker 2:Motherhood seems miserable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which is a take that a lot of people make sometimes, right so, but that got a whole cultural debate reignited. It comes up, however often it comes up, but then you have, you know, parents feeling some type of up. But then you have, you know, yeah, parents feeling some type of way, and then you have the child free by choice, people you know chiming in and then it just like creates this weird cultural war when really everyone's just like making the best decisions for them you know, okay, like.
Speaker 2:What would life be like if we made the best decision for ourselves?
Speaker 1:well, and I mean so to open that up to nuance also not everyone is making the quote unquote best choice for themselves. Some people don't have a choice, right, like there's just so much that goes into it so Absolutely.
Speaker 2:It's so interesting because I obviously I've talked about my population of clients is they're primarily queer, yeah, and I have quite a few that are child free by choice and child free by situation, like they're not accidentally getting pregnant. And so there's a conversation of my friend had a baby and now we're not friends anymore or I have to provide all the emotional labor to maintain this friendship and that's really hard. And so it's navigating, recognizing I have to put in more effort into this relationship right now because I have this baby, but I still also want to feel chosen by my friend. Sure, I still want to feel like I matter by my friend and navigating, having grace for it but also like being sad Sure no-transcript about with clients is you have to decide what you have capacity for.
Speaker 2:You may have the capacity to make up that difference. You may not. Yeah, and that's no one's fault. That's just where everyone is in their lives.
Speaker 1:Yeah Right, we all have our seasons of lives and we we just do it, yeah, and I'm really glad you and I are having this conversation Right, because, well, for the listeners who don't know, rebecca is a parent I have a four year old, six year old. Yep, two sons and I am child free by choice, although recently that's been like shifting, but I could just be having a midlife crisis. No one knows what's happening with me, but it's good that we're discussing your choice.
Speaker 1:It's my choice and I get so, yeah, and some people, even hearing that like, would kick me out of like a chat, like if there was. And there are clubs, there are Facebook groups, there are so many things around like child free by choice Right, but even if there was, sometimes there's like an inkling of someone becoming a fence sitter and people will just be like you can't sit with us anymore, which I find very interesting. But, yeah, my perspective is a very different one than yours, so I think it's great that we get to have this conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I. It's interesting when I was in college, I had a lot of friends who wanted to have children, like they wanted to get married, they want to have babies and I was someone that was like I'm not going to have children until after I'm 30. I'm not going to have children until after I'm 30. That's ridiculous. I was the first one of the friend group to have a baby. Ain't that the way it goes? And that's just the way it goes. And it's interesting because, also going back to what Chopperone said, she's 27 years old. Yeah, now I. How old was I when I had my first? I was pregnant at 27 with my first kid. But what does a 27-year-old know? What did we know at 27? Not shit, nothing.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure how much I know at 34 now, honestly valid.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally valid. Yes, I was pregnant. I was like sorry, I was just going back, like I think what's really hard with having children is that you really don't know what it's going to be like until you're in it. I can remember being pregnant and people telling me like, oh, you're never going to sleep again, you're never going to sleep again. And I was like bitch, please. Like, if one more person says this to me, you don't know my life. Oh my God, I didn't sleep again, but I did not understand what that would actually be like.
Speaker 2:Sure, like that bone crushing, exhaustion, something else. That something I really struggle with the motherhood, parenthood, community is there's this so much toxic positivity and I struggled really bad with my first, with postpartum depression, and then I was anxious my entire second pregnancy because it was COVID, like pregnant when the world was on fire. I don't know that the flames have ever gone out, but that's neither here nor there. But I had a friend who had a baby a couple months before me and she was thriving in motherhood, like just carrying that baby around, natural birth, no drugs, like just living her life. I was barely holding on, I think at one point I was fantasizing about, like driving off a bridge.
Speaker 2:Normal, that's when I went to my doctor.
Speaker 1:Yeah, go. That is a normal experience, this thing is happening to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you should. If you're experiencing that, you should go talk to someone. Yes, you should never fantasize about driving off a bridge with your newborn. I don't think my newborn was in the car with me. Mentally, I think it was just me. Okay, that's like to clarify. I don't think my newborn was in the car with me. Mentally, I think it was just me. Okay, that's like to clarify.
Speaker 2:But seeing everyone talk about how amazing having a baby is, how amazing and magical this was, I felt like I was broken, something was wrong with me. I was going to be a terrible mother because I was so sad, I was so disconnected from my body, I was disconnected from my family and I just felt so out of sorts. And so, evaluating what motherhood means and what success as a parent means and that's something that in my own therapy journey that I really had to navigate having those two kids, because they're two years, literally two years apart and so navigating what do I consider success for parenthood when all of this is happening? Because is success making my own baby food? Is it breastfeeding until they're two? What is success?
Speaker 2:Yeah, when I have that conversation with parents now and I reflect on my own journey in parenthood is do my children know they're loved? That's, I love that. Do my children know they're loved? If I ask them, when do you feel loved by me the most? That answer for each kid is going to change For the longest time.
Speaker 2:When I asked my oldest, it was when you draw with me. Well, honey, I hate to tell you I'm not drawn very well and very much, but you know what, if that's when you feel most loved for me? Absolutely yeah. You asked my youngest, he goes when I'm a cat. Take that as you will, that's on point. With that child, yep, yep. When I'm a cat, I'm like okay, great, right. And so I think, as a parent, we internalize so much of what's right, what's enough, and I have to love every moment of this, or I feel such immense guilt that when people say, hey, I'm choosing not to have a child, it's this horror of one. Was that a choice, I feel like, for some people, but also of no? If I have to suck it up and do this, you should too?
Speaker 1:Do you feel like that sometimes, or did that? Has that come up for you personally?
Speaker 2:Not necessarily. I don't regret anything in my motherhood journey and I can say that confidently. I think there are moments where I questioned if I was doing the right thing and if I could be enough Right. Can I be a good mom? These decisions that I've made and continue to make in my life, like am I doing the right thing? We don't know. No, no no.
Speaker 2:But it's so interesting when you're talking about the fence setters and whether this is good or bad. These are things I've said is when people said I don't know if I want a kid, my mental response was if you don't know, you want to have one, don't. This is not, it's not like adopting like a puppy. I mean, I guess it's not. No, it's not the same. Right Like, once you decide to have that child, you can't take it back. No, no, You're not getting a sweater at the store.
Speaker 1:Well, in my personal experience now that I've lived I mean I've been most of my life very staunchly like child free by choice Like I feel like I knew from a pretty young age that it just wasn't going to be a journey that I was that interested in, and there's a lot of reasons I go into that. And there's also like you don't need a reason other than you just like don't want to right. And the fence sitter thing is like very new for me to even like think about it. But I've had a lot of experiences come up lately and it's brought up a lot of questions of if I had had perhaps a different upbringing and if I had met different types of men and engaged with different types of men throughout my life, would this have been different for me? And now that I'm thinking about that and knowing that and having the chance to interact with the right type of men, who would make me consider that, you know, do I feel differently? And there's no answer for me there.
Speaker 2:Well, that goes back to society telling people you should have children. There are areas of this world where we also say you shouldn't. Right, absolutely Right. We actually see that a lot with the queer community, this idea of like oh, kids.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's weird to be in a new place with it, but I think I'm guessing I will remain child-free.
Speaker 1:You know, at the end of the day it's your choice, but it's my choice and it's just been interesting thinking about it and then also having to acknowledge that, like these spaces, that I've lived in my entire life with people who viewed it the same way that I did, like they would then well, not all of them right, a lot of people can't exist with nuance, but a lot of people would be like, oh, you don't get to say you're like child free by choice anymore than like you're just child free, or there's just like some people get really attached to like the different labels of things and what it means for them, and I think that's where these like cultural wars start, is that where people feel attacked in a very like solid part of their identity.
Speaker 2:I was going to say it's not a personal attack if I have a different opinion than you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, like, and if you have a different identity and feelings around that identity, and I have a different identity and feelings around that identity. I don't look at child-free by choice people and say, oh Well, like you know there is like, oh, you're selfish, You're this I mean, I get it from my mom, unfortunately still is just like you're selfish if you don't have a kid and it's like, oh well, maybe I am, and if I am selfish, yeah, there's a lot of difference, Do?
Speaker 2:I have love and capacity for this child versus. Will this look better for my image, I think, and I would never wish any of my clients were not alive. Let me be very clear, but I have reflected before on if their parents were really thoughtful on their capacity to have children and didn't have children what would life look like?
Speaker 1:Well, I think that's a good point in which we can like talk about, with some of the stuff that comes up here is yeah, how much? How much are people thinking about having children and what that really means? How much of that is like society led? And there's, of course, considerations to make if you aren't having children. That comes with a whole lot of stuff too, you know. So we're gonna move into just some research I came across when planning this episode, because I mean, there's research on a ton of stuff, right, and you have to like go so far back to like see who's doing the research and like, yes, how is this research being? So everything I'm about to say take it with a grain of research salt, in that there's a lot of research out there that says a whole lot of things. And so you know it's been pretty put out there in the last couple of years that there's these studies that have come out that say that unmarried and childish well, my God, childless, childless, my god, unmarried, childless women report the highest subjective happiness. So that's, we're going to consider that for a second.
Speaker 1:And then there are studies that show that parents, and especially mothers, often experience a drop in sexual satisfaction and relational closeness. Postpartum research has shown that actually the first five years of a child's life are like the unhappiest for a couple. Couples, yeah, rates at the lowest. Babies don't save marriages, babies don't save marriage. You heard it here first. In fact, they make things very, very hard for a while and you really need a solid foundation to withstand that storm. And then, very interestingly, and I don't know how it really pulls into the rest of this I just thought it was interesting but there are some research lenses that say that traditional and conservative couples report the highest levels of marital satisfaction and a lot of that is potentially due to more rigid roles and like everyone knowing where they fall within that relationship.
Speaker 1:Interesting, right, yeah, but you know we do need to unpack and like touch base on the fact that, like, happiness and satisfaction aren't the same thing. Ooh, tell me more. I mean, I think maybe a lot of parents would say, especially in the first five years of a child's life, that maybe they're not happy but maybe they're more satisfied than they've ever been. Or they maybe not ever been, but they're experiencing a deep level of satisfaction at having created a life and nurturing a life. And there is this idea of legacy and love and there's like, of course, there's so many beautiful parts of becoming a parent and creating a life, and there is this idea of legacy and love and there's like, of course, there's so many beautiful parts of becoming a parent and creating a life and there's a satisfaction in that, even if, at the moment, happiness doesn't exist, which I always find. Did you ever read the Regretful Parents subreddit?
Speaker 2:I admittedly have not spent a lot of time on it. I didn't know Reddit existed until like two years ago.
Speaker 1:That's really good for your brain.
Speaker 1:I'm really happy for you.
Speaker 1:You know, and a lot of the child-free people will exist, on regretful parents to be like see, like all the people have kids and then like, go on to regret it, which can be true there are a lot, I mean but there are child-free by choice people who don't have children and also regret that. Right, like there are just so many context nuanced things to this. But you have to remember, when you're also reading those stories about regretful parents, that, like in a moment in time when your baby has colic and hasn't slept in two weeks and you haven't slept in two weeks, you might be having some really strong feelings and opinions about becoming a parent. And when that child is, when you're at that child's wedding, when they're 25 and they're getting married, like, your feelings probably are different and that's just the way of life, right, but like we can hold space for so many things being true at once and there could be in a child-free by choice person's life there could be moments of regret but also moments of happiness that they didn't. You know, it's like we all move in waves.
Speaker 1:Man, have you ever made?
Speaker 2:a decision and never wavered for believing that decision was right. No, no, never, hell. I still wonder what I'm doing every day, showing up to this podcast.
Speaker 1:Damn. No, but that's yeah. That's exactly the point. That's life Is that, like happiness, satisfaction aren't the same and those both aren't constant states of being right. Like happiness is not a constant state of being and you're gonna make a whole lot of choices. You're not always gonna be happy with them siblings.
Speaker 2:So like number of children you have, so we have satisfaction. But so my partner is an only child and she talks about all the time how she hates being an only child, not necessarily because she wanted to socialize with another child when she was younger, but the responsibility now, as an adult, of the emotional labor from aging parents, oh yeah. And she's like I don't have anyone to depend on. I don't have anyone that I can brainstorm with or rely on to help support me. I'm it, yeah, that is a lot. I'm it Versus. So, taking that look through the role of the child versus the role of the parent, right, because as a parent, it was. It may be easy to travel with one child. You know, financially I can do more with one versus multiple, sure. And so, going back to the idea of nuance, like, yeah, it makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, there's just a whole lot. I just wish we would all be, a little kinder to each other.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I think in my mind, when I think of pro-choice right, we think of a lot of times in the political context of like right. We think of a lot of times in the political context of like right to like choice for your body versus pro-life. I always think it is a two of like pro-choice. What to do with my own life, what to do with how I live my life? Yeah, and so in my mind, you want kids? Great. You don't want kids? Okay, yeah, like I genuinely don't give a shit, as long as you're living true to your values, unless your values are like hurting other people, okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think there are areas, though, that it gets tricky, and this is a little off your outline and I'm so sorry for that, but I think about how we're finding more data on the impact of adoption on children, oh, and so we are seeing so many cases of adoption causing harm to children as they get older and they're like I regret being adopted.
Speaker 2:We're seeing the impact of donor sperm, right when you say, ok, I used a sperm donor and that, like, I regret being adopted. We're seeing the impact of like donor sperm right, where you say, okay, I used a sperm donor and that's how I had this child. Well, now I found out that child has 150 siblings. What are the ethical pieces of that? And I'm not shaming or saying one is right or one is wrong I think, at the end of the day, I think, at the end of the day, there are so many ethical dilemmas with how we parent, how we bring children into this world, sure, how we decide what to do with children once they're here, that, at the end of the day, are we showing love? Mm-hmm, does this make sense?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I feel like it just kind of went on a random tangent.
Speaker 1:No I liked it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I ended up on a like ethics of adoption rabbit hole once on social media and I was like, oh my gosh, this whole world and it was a bunch of adults who were adopted and just had horrible experiences and identity crises?
Speaker 1:Sure, yeah, that makes sense to me. I hadn't heard about. I mean, I've never done a deep dive into it like that, though, so I get randomly fixated on random things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's very adhd of you. I had a 30 minute rant today about miss saigon with my interns. I, I don't know. I had some feelings and I don't even remember why the feelings came. But, um, luckily everyone knows my adhd brain is just going to be doing what it's doing. But yeah, so talk to me more about child free by choice.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of people who are, I mean, I, I can't speak for the whole child free, speak for you, I'm going to speak for me. So for me, I have always really loved autonomy and freedom and kind of being able to do whatever it is I want to do. And yeah, I really have leaned into this idea that like okay, if I am selfish or if you know, I'm perceived as being because that was like a political thing a couple years ago too Someone somewhere said, like if you're not having children, like you're being selfish or something. I think Judy Vance said that Really, yeah, that's. But yeah, then I've just really leaned into that of like maybe I am selfish and like maybe that's even more reason to not have another small life depend on me, and I also I mean me personally maybe it's just a lifetime of like health anxiety, but I really don't want to be pregnant, especially it wouldn't make. This would maybe be different if our country was different and if all these weird things around women's bodies were different.
Speaker 2:But I do not feel safe in any context. I heard that by a lot of people who I guess you could say were on the fence, yeah, and now they're like but I don't want to die people who I guess you could say were on the fence, yeah, and now they're like but I don't want to die.
Speaker 1:That's actually a huge grieving point for a lot of women right now who were on the fence and who are, who have now kind of taken the perspective of like, well, I just don't, I can't risk it. And now I have to grieve this thing that I did want and now I just feel like I really like can't have because there's just too much choice personally taken away, because the choice was taken away, because things feel really unsafe for people right now. Right, and then, yeah, I mean maybe, maybe I feel like I've always been really intentional about thinking about what being a parent means and what it would entail. And I know that there's a whole identity shift with that. And I think part of me is just like I don't want.
Speaker 1:I don't want the identity shift, like I want the identity that I have and I want to keep honing those parts, but I don't know that I can like handle the shift that it would it would bring. You know what I mean. And, yeah, just if I was a parent, I think I would be a fucking amazing parent. I would be so intentional and I would be so, I would be so in it, but I don't, I don't know. That's just not where I've ever really wanted to put my intentions right like I've always wanted to put it have a farm of animals.
Speaker 2:It feels I do have a farm of animals.
Speaker 1:It feels like I do have a farm of animals Actually, yeah, I'm coming up against this theme in my life anyways that like I already spend a lot of my life quote unquote taking care of animals or, you know, being a therapist You're not taking care of people there but like it is a lot of emotional labor.
Speaker 1:It's a lot of emotional labor and I think that to have a child would mean a huge identity shift in that like I would really want to put all my attention into caring for that and I think I would have to withdraw all these other things that I do to like care for in all these other capacities, because that's I mean we talk about burnt out moms all the time, right, because they're just like giving, giving, giving, giving, yeah, and I would like to receive a little bit, I think yeah absolutely.
Speaker 2:I do want to clarify something this just made me think is we keep talking about moms, oh yeah, but we also recognize there are single dads, absolutely, there are people who identify as parent, not necessarily mom or dad. Yep, so really we were talking about the collective parent, I think, because you and I would, I do, identify as a mom. If you had a child, you would identify as a mom. That's why that language is really there. And then, of course, being the impact, the impact of being the birthing parent. So those for context, we probably should have done a little disclaimer at the beginning, but when we talk about parenthood, those are kind of the languages and things we're talking and often when I'm seeing this discourse, when these things do come up, um, in the cultural like language, like I'm seeing people who identify as women, like mom, get pissed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, those are the people I'm like witnessing having these conversations. I guess, yeah, we're talking about parenthood as a whole. So I think a lot of child free by choice, people feel like they have to answer to being child-free. Like people will feel like they have to have some sort of anxiety or like trauma underneath of like why they don't want kids. And I am also here to tell you that, like some people just don't want kids. Again, they like see the weight of it and they choose not to hold that weight and put the intention elsewhere, which for everyone it's different, because your life live right. But, yeah, then there's all the cultural stigma that comes with you know, being told that you're selfish or, oh my God, being told that you'll change your mind. For so long I've heard it and people do hear it, and it becomes exhausting where it's like well, what if I? How about I? Just how about? It's like none of your business to put that on me, right, like whether I do or don't Exactly, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2:You're not in control of my mind.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, but yeah, so I think I think a lot of child-free people really just want to hold on to freedom in a lot of sense freedom in their life, sexual freedom, because sex is impacted by having kids and I like having sex. I don't want to stop having sex, and that's not to say that parents do right, but there's definitely a dip in satisfaction also with women's bodies. So many different things can happen that just scare me personally.
Speaker 2:It's interesting because I've actually had friends who have said their sex lives took off after they had children. I love that for them and I don't know if it's something that changed physically after they had babies or what, but they're like I've had the best orgasms of my life after having kids. That's awesome. That's not everyone's experience, let me be clear, but I remember her saying that and I was like okay, queen.
Speaker 1:I think that's really great to hear because, yeah, on the other side you kind of just hear like some of the horror stories of like ripping and it's just never being the same ever. So, yeah, and then you know potential relationship satisfaction because you don't have the stress of having to agree on how to raise a small human. And that's not to say that all child-free by choice couples are happier. Right, like nuance to everything, nuance everywhere.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it's interesting. People fight for their marriage because they have children, and if you don't have that holding together, do you fight for the same reason? Or is it easier to walk away? I don't know, I'm just asking.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, then it's like are we actually fighting for one another or for this? Like third option? Not option, but third reason, right, like of another human.
Speaker 2:There's the idea of fighting for relationship or fighting for the family. Right, yeah, right, because that identity shifts a little bit.
Speaker 1:Sure, that's interesting. Yeah, of course you will hear about child free by choice people either moving into some fence sitting territory and or there are. I mean, I have grief. I have grief around not becoming a parent, even though I'm like actively choosing not to become a parent, but there's grief in that. Still for me. There's questions, there's wonder, there's. There's always a what if, no matter what you do, whether you become a parent or you, don't become a parent Always a what if, no matter what you do, whether you become a parent or you don't become a parent.
Speaker 2:Well, it's interesting. There is an episode of Grey's Anatomy. I talk about Grey's Anatomy a lot on this podcast you do, but I haven't watched Grey's Anatomy in years. Interesting, so I don't know why these themes, but I can remember there's this episode about Christina imagining because I think she ends up having an abortion. But she thinks about if she did have that child, what would her life look like, and she of course appeared miserable in that like thought trail, what her life would look like. But she was also someone who just did not want children and that was never what she wanted her life to look like. You know, her best friend had children and really struggled but chose that life and left that life. Um, so it's just really interesting. You know what?
Speaker 1:pissed a lot of people off that episode of of how I Met your Mother. Did you watch how I Met your Mother, was it?
Speaker 2:Yes, I did, but which episode?
Speaker 1:So there's, you know, robin is child free by choice and is a very autonomous, you know, freedom oriented, you know woman episode that she, I think her and barney are like married at this point or something, but where she finds out that she actually, like can't have kids. And so there's this whole episode where she's talking to her kids about how, I think, maybe how she met their father or something like that. And so the whole episode everyone's like what the fuck? Why is robin talking to her like we never thought she was gonna have kids? And then by the end of it she says something like really sad or whatever of like, and this is what I would have told you if you were real, if, yeah, if you were able to like exist or whatever.
Speaker 1:But the whole thing was about, um, not even her necessarily wanting kids still, but about the grief of leaving the choice being taken away. Yeah, but even then people were like no, we just want to see, like see a woman who just doesn't want kids and doesn't have all these complex feelings around it. And I get that because it's not really shown a whole lot of just a woman who really just stands in that and doesn't feel, or, if you do. They're cold and hypersexual and all this stuff, which I don't even like the word hypersexual number one. But yeah, I personally loved that episode because there is grief, and nuance and even if you, even if Robin had still never wanted kids there's grief taken from her.
Speaker 2:There's grief in the choice we grieve, losing options, even if we knew we didn't want that option.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's just human right. There's. That's such a human experience to have what ifs Even if we are 99.9% sure we don't want kids. There is a small small percentage of what if? What would it? And some people maybe don't have them right. Maybe some people are like no, I absolutely just know that I definitely don't, would never. But I would be interested to see if that is really a lifelong permanent. I just don't feel like in our minds we stay in like permanent stages of being always, you know, and it's okay to like make room for thoughts to come and go, and that doesn't have to mean anything?
Speaker 2:well, I'm not. Yeah, because we don't have one decision and never regret that decision, right, sometimes it's for a big percentage of time. Sometimes it's just a little like damn it, I have to clean up vomit for the third time today, right? No, there is something that I actually got really angry on with Big Bang Theory is Penny has said she doesn't want children and she makes it clear like she and Leonard are married. She's like I don't want children and like Leonard has some feelings about it, but then they ultimately they're okay over not having children. Last episode, she's pregnant and she's excited Like there's no conversation about. Okay, it was a surprise pregnancy. What did her process look like? No, she was just immediately excited. Oh, she was so adamant and I remember reading an article that the actress that plays Penny was like I was pissed about that. Yeah, because there was no conversation, there was no shift. It was surprise. I'm pregnant and I'm just super happy about it and I'm just super happy about it, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I mean I think a lot of child free people do feel, yeah, their representation in media is often like You'll change your mind, you'll change your mind, or there's this, you know sad grief around it, or you'll just, or it just then happens to the child free. You know characters that they then go on to have children. So I do understand the perspective of of why that like pisses people off or why that episode around Robin pissed people off. But I think there are some. I think there are some staunchly child free by choice representations, but I do think that they are very rare, for women at least. Men Right Easy.
Speaker 2:So let's talk about being a parent, yeah.
Speaker 1:Talk to me about being a parent. I'll sit back on this one.
Speaker 2:Being a parent is hard. Yeah, it is hard. It is beautiful in a lot of ways. No-transcript, and I'm like we don't have cats. Where are you even seeing these cats that are looking out the window? I have no idea, because in the houses that he goes to there are no cats. Fascinating, I'm going to look out the window like a cat. Okay, we listen to bad boys on repeat in the car sometimes because that is the song that we are really into right now. They're funny and there's so much joy there.
Speaker 2:I think what can be really hard is that labor that goes into it that we're never really going to get appreciation for Right Like we have to think of the impact of where they are developmentally. Like my kid does not understand that I work my ass off to give him the things they need. He doesn't. In his mind he's like oh, can I not have another deck of Pokemon cards? No, no.
Speaker 2:I think my kids think I'm really poor because I'll be like mama, I want McDonald's. I'm like oh, buddy, we don't have McDonald's money today. And so he's like oh, we don't have McDonald's money. No, baby, we don't have McDonald's money. And so he'll be like we can't. We don't have McDonald's money Can't do it, we can't do it, but so much happens to our bodies when we talk about like birthing a child, right, I I say this all the time so my first kid. So I preeclampsia with both babies. So what that meant is that my kidneys weren't functioning well. My blood pressure was really, really elevated, so I had to have both babies early. For that reason, I had perfect vision until my first pregnancy and then, like literally postpartum, I was telling my kid's dad.
Speaker 2:I was like I can't see, I can't read this red sign, like I don't know what's happening. But my eyes don't work so I had to get glasses. After I had my second kid, my hair was straight. I have like wavy-ish hair, wavy, curly hair. It's finally bounced back, but it was a couple of years and a couple of perms, which was a very poor decision. Y'all may or may not know this about me. I know you know this about me. Once I make a decision like it's kind of done, yeah, so you could not have talked to me out of that perp. Yeah, it was a choice. Our bodies change. Everything changes.
Speaker 2:I got diagnosed with ADHD after I had my first child because all of the like sensory issues I had, I didn't like being touched I'm not a touchy human and all of a sudden I have this thing that wants to be on my body all the time and I was like, oh my gosh. I stayed in the state of overstimulated but didn't really understand what's happening. All my coping skills that I had in place no longer worked because I have this tiny human. And so in a lot of ways, parenthood for me made me really investigate who I am in my own self-awareness because I think so much stuff. I could have shifted from the side. But it's like having that baby cracked me open and said we got to figure this shit out.
Speaker 2:And part of that, I think, is because I wanted to break generational cycles in my family. I didn't want to be the way that other generations had been. I wanted my kid to have a different life, and so something I say and I stand by and will die on this hill is nothing brings up childhood trauma, like having a child oh, I believe it or being in a relationship. So not only is your body changing, but how you view the world is changing, how you view yourself is changing. And then how do you manage your different identities, your identity as a parent, your identity as a human, your identity in your profession and figuring out what that is.
Speaker 2:And I think that there's a lot of guilt, like we talked about mom guilt, parent guilt however you want to label it of guilt of not being enough for everything that you want to be, and it can be really, really challenging. So, again, there's a lot of joy and love and excitement, and there's also like, again, I've cleaned up vomit for the third time today and then when we talk about like sex I have worked with so many relationships of parents we're like we want to have sex again and so figuring out what that looks like for them. Sometimes it's not your typical penis and vagina sex. It's really more about intimacy building.
Speaker 1:It becomes really intentional. It has to become really intentional.
Speaker 2:Right, y'all may not have the energy for sex, but do you have the energy to take a shower together, right? Figuring out how we balance labor because I think that's something that comes up a lot in parenting is what does equitable labor look like? We see this I heard this once and I have seen it in people's lives is this idea of he didn't want to be a dad, he wanted me to be a mom, right and taking on that labor? And that's not the case, and that's not every man. That's what I'm saying. But when we look at parenthood that way, if there is not an equitable division of labor before you have children, there's not going to be after you have children.
Speaker 1:I have actually heard a lot of child-free by choice women make the comment of like maybe I would want kids if I could get to be the dad.
Speaker 2:Well, it's interesting. So my partner is studying to be a play therapist. She graduates soon. It's really exciting. But she was telling me that and we're going to use the term mom and dad but it could be parent one, parent two that typically with moms, children get a serotonin boost from snuggling, from physical contact. They get dopamine from playing with dad oh, fascinating. And so you typically have your serotonin parent and your dopamine parent, right? So if you think about when people say, oh, they have so much fun with their dad and I get, and I don't get that fun, it's because they are actively seeking out dopamine with their dad. They don't need dopamine from mom, they're wanting serotonin from mom.
Speaker 1:Fascinating.
Speaker 2:And so, again, we can recalibrate that. So, if you have a same sex relationship, think serotonin, parent, dopamine, parent, sure, but isn't that really interesting? That is very interesting. So I'd love to hear more research about that and kind of investigate that further. But, yeah, and so I think when we talk about equitable relationships, we're not talking about equal relationships, we're talking about equitable Yep.
Speaker 2:And so something that I encourage clients to do is use the Fair Play cards. So Fair Play it's a book and also cards where it talks about, like, unseen labor. So let's say, one parent says, hey, I took the kids to soccer. Like you should be proud of me, yeah, but I signed them up for soccer, I bought the jersey, I made sure they had their water bottle, I filled up the water bottle, I told you where to go and what to do. Yes, you took them to soccer, but here are the five invisible steps that we don't see, right, right.
Speaker 2:And so the fair play cards can really make those things clear. Like birthday labor, like, oh, it's mom's birthday, yeah, I already got the gift, I got the cake, we planned the dinner, right, like those labor pieces that we don't see. So it can be really helpful for two parents or two people in a relationship. It doesn't have to be with kids two people in a relationship to really go through. What labor am I not seeing my partner doing? Yeah, because while that partner may say, yeah, I did all these things for this birthday, the other one's like yeah, and I called the lawn people, or I did the lawn work, or right, I made sure that the toilet works. I like checked your oil. You know what I mean. Like just how are we looking at labor and so making sure it's very clear. I feel like I've gone on a tangent, but I feel like equity is such a huge part of parenthood.
Speaker 1:Well, it is satisfaction, yeah, absolutely, and I think that, yeah, that shows up in working with parents and partners and then also on the child free end of things of like I think a lot of women are opting out of getting married and having kids because they don't, they're not seeing, like, the potential for those equitable partners, right, like it's a whole.
Speaker 2:Then you're just going into talking about dating, which is a whole different episode, but well, and so my question would be is how do we encourage relationships to be more equitable in the beginning? I think we should do a whole episode on equity. Okay, we'll just add it to the list because I feel like there's so much to do. But that is for me, in the relationships that I see in my practice, equity is one of the biggest complaints. Yeah, because if we don't have an equitable relationship, we're not having sex. We don't want to be touched Right Like when things don't feel. If I feel like I have to do all the work and then you want me to have sex with you, right, like that's the feedback that I get in these relationships, sure, it feels like another, another piece of labor I have to give Absolutely. On the flip side of that, the partner doesn't want to be Well, I don't want to have sex with me because it's labor.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:I want you to want me. Right Now I'm singing this song, I want you, and this is a whole other again side, tangent. But there is a lot with parenting and then you feel like you master one stage and then they hit a whole other stage. Yeah, I was like, look, I just got used to your like sleep patterns and now you're moving. Yeah, and it was funny.
Speaker 2:My first child talked very, very early and in complete sentences. He had opinions real early. My second one didn't speak a word until after he was two. No interest, just vibes, just vibes. He was just vibes too. He was just vibes. He is not just vibes, he's a cat now. He's a cat now.
Speaker 2:Actually, we were me and my semi-six-year-old had gotten gotten in trouble at school and he and I were having a really serious tense conversation in the car and my four-year-old goes there's a cat in the car. We just busted out laughing Like just moments like that are so fun and sweet and they're like cool people and it's kind of and it's fun to see those cool pieces of you in them, yeah, but also seeing how cool they are On their own. On their own, yeah, and I think we mentioned this earlier and if not, it was definitely in our outline from earlier. But this idea of legacy In my mind, my kids are not my legacy. I want my kids to want to be my legacy, but that's not what they are, because I made them exist Right. And so when we see people that are in no contact with their parents and people oh well, I gave life to you, you owe me that mentality I'm like no, I want my kids to want a relationship with me, but if they don't, I have to reflect on what that looks like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's like one of the biggest considerations I made as a non-parent. And then that I hear I don't know. I just I wonder how much childhood trauma we could stave off by accidentally creating Right, If we really went into parenthood with a very solid intention that you do not get to control who that child becomes. You can try, you can try to instill your morals and your values and what you find important, but your child is going to be who they are and if you are not okay with that, then that's a consideration to maybe think about Can you be okay if your child doesn't continue on with your business, right?
Speaker 2:I feel like that's the theme in books and movies all the time, like he doesn't want to join the family business.
Speaker 1:but I mean or like if they have different political leanings, if they, you know, like if your religious views different religious views, I mean you have to be so open to your child becoming whoever they're going to become, um, and lest lest you guys have a tense relationship which then causes sadness and trauma for everyone right. So, yeah, let's move into the fence setters as we talk about consideration.
Speaker 2:And I do just want to say we can't have children to correct our own childhood. Oh right, I think a lot of people.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think so much of this is subconscious, right. There's a lot of subconscious stuff that goes into this decision, no matter which way you swing it, you know.
Speaker 2:But yes, the fence sitters. The fence sitters, I think I said sitters.
Speaker 1:We're articulating very well today. So the fence sitters I mean these are just people who are open to parenthood and open to not non parenthood. And I think a lot of fence sitters maybe it's still a contextual thing where they, yeah, it's just like I only want to have kids if it's like with the right partner, and then there's like the age consideration to make in that, or like I only want to have kids if I do it by like a certain timeline. But they are the ones sitting right here in the middle with all of the different thoughts right Of, like they have to consider, like the body trauma, the potential regret, either which way, losing their freedom, which I.
Speaker 1:I'm a child, free by choice person and I love my freedom and I still don't really love the framework that, like by choosing to be a parent, you're like losing your freedom. I think that for a lot of people it opens up life in a lot of new ways that feel like a different kind of freedom for them. So like I would never sit here and be like, oh, you're a parent, like you lost all your freedom, like I think your life opened up in different ways that, like mine, won't you know, my values change and your values change, yeah, right, so I talk about values.
Speaker 2:So much in therapy. It's kind of the foundation of a lot of what I do is examining our values and things can change our values. Yeah, major upheaval, trauma, relationship changes, having children totally change your values, and so in my mind, I don't see it for myself as losing freedom If my priorities and my values change. Yeah, right, can I revisit some of the things that were important to me before children? Sure, yeah, not right now. Sure, but I'm there, can't, like. I have seen people grieve that that's not something I've personally grieved at this point, but yeah, just because it changes, yeah, and let's talk about the fear of dying alone.
Speaker 1:I always find this one to be really interesting because, you know, it's like a thing that people consider when they go into having kids. But, like you, going back to your children are going to be whoever they're going to be, you could have kids and still not be surrounded by them. What if your kids think you're an asshole? What if your kids are kind of assholes and you still are on your deathbed and they're not there? And so I just kind of want to put it out there that, like, having kids isn't, like some now guarantee that you'll be cared for or that you'll be surrounded in your death.
Speaker 2:I you know, I was a hospice social worker for years, yeah, and so I've watched a lot of people die, and the number of children you have does not indicate anything. I watched a woman with two children die alone Yep, 10., 10. Jesus, 10. All single births. So like can you imagine? No Oof. But what was the most impactful for being surrounded by love towards the end was the community you built, the people that were heavily involved in their churches and had a supportive church family right, because I'm in the South, so that's a big source of community for people. Those are the people that were surrounded as they were leaving. People that built the community, built love. That was the most impactful. Not that they had children, yeah, and that makes sense.
Speaker 1:That definitely makes sense. So, yeah, I think that people considering whether or not to have kids I mean there's just a lot of obviously social narratives that feel like are forcing like a binary of where they should or have to exist and they're just like somewhere in the middle maybe feeling like they don't really have a place to exist because there's the parents. And then there's like the staunchly again child free by choice, like the hardcore child free by choice.
Speaker 2:people like do not want fence setters around there, like you don't get to be a part of this I was just reflecting, I wonder, the impact of child, not necessarily child free by choice, but like trying to decide what you want to do, kids or not. Kids are children of the sandwich generation the sandwich. So those are the. That's the generation that was raising kids and taking care of their aging parents at the same time. Oh shit, so they were taking care of everyone, like Gen Xers. Yes, yeah, right. So if you're taking care of your parents and taking care of children at the same time, and as that child because again we've talked about the children's perspective, I think is really important If I was the child watching that happen, do you think I'd want to have children Watching what my parents went through, taking care of their eating parents and me? No, that was not my experience. I was not raised by the same generation, but I'm just saying yeah, I think that could be really impactful.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:But yeah.
Speaker 2:I think people considering having kids, are thinking about regrets either which way and trying to figure out like which ones potentially the way more for them subjectively. Why are regrets on children one of the biggest things in life that we talk about? Because I feel like we make regrets on what we chose our career to be. We make regrets on did that one? Was that the one that got away? I regret quitting that job. I feel like there are so many things in life we regret but we put so much value in regretting whether we had children or not I mean mean because I just think it's one of the biggest choices you can make or not make.
Speaker 1:Maybe I mean it's creation, it's a literal creation of life. I guess you know, like so many other things that you just named choice, and like I can like start to try to change that, like tomorrow you know what I mean but like I'm gonna reach a certain age and like I'm not gonna, I mean I could, I could be 50 and like adopt a baby or you know whatever. It is like people do that, but there's a lot of things that go into the considerations to to bring in there too. You know, I don't know, it's just like maybe such a, it's just such a big decision either which way, it's a big decision.
Speaker 1:I think we just put a lot of weight it's biological man speaking of biology as a child, free by choice, fucking woman. I I don't know what it is in the past like year or two, but I cannot be around a small like three and under and I, just a small child is around me and I just want to smell its head and it's I never got the head smelling.
Speaker 2:no like again. My kids are real, but I never just sniffed their head Like people talk about that. I love the smell of a baby Well, and I was like shit because it explodes all the time.
Speaker 1:You know, I was told that like oh, your body is going to like start and I was like no, no, no, like I don't predominantly. But wow, do I want to smell a baby's head and do my loins do very weird things around?
Speaker 2:I never even thought I would use the word loins, but anyway, some people not everyone experiences that I have a lot of hormone issues, so it may be just be my. Yeah, it could be how our hormones are.
Speaker 1:I'm also in a midlife crisis. I have no idea what's happening, so you're not even midlife. Well, you know, whatever, whatever crisis. I'm in Third life crisis, so I think the really important thing that you know we can offer people who are considering it, because you know choices have been made in the other camps pretty much. But is you know, can I imagine myself being fulfilled in either life? What do? What does either path potentially look like for me? What are the things that will come? What are the things that will come? What are the things that could potentially be regretted? Right, but like, could I imagine my life either which way?
Speaker 2:And what does what fulfills me either, which way that like isn't just based on this decision when I like. This question that we talked about is this idea of what kind of life do I want to build and who would I want to build it with? Instead of do I want to have kids or not have kids?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, Right with instead of do I want to have kids or not?
Speaker 2:have kids? Oh yeah, Right. Like. What do I want my life to look like? How do I want to build it, what are my values and where do we go from there?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that is the point in which I wish we would. I wish that is the basis we would bring in for everyone when they are, like, young enough to be deciding which life path they want to go on Right Like what kind of life do I want to build and who do I want to build it with? What is important to me? And then also being open to understanding that throughout life, those things still might change, like we're always changing, and that's why choosing to have a kid or not have a kid like you could feel one way about it and then, at a different stage in your life, feel another way, and there's no way to stop having regrets in your life Like there's just no way.
Speaker 2:So I think the big thing is showing grace to yourself. Remember that nuance exists and nothing. It doesn't have to be an us versus them. Yeah, I mean we're friends. Yes, we're friends and I have kids and I'm a child free by choice, and that is a-okay. And you know what? If you become a, if you are a fence sitter is what I'm hearing. You say I don't know, ok, like.
Speaker 1:I don't know what's happening with me.
Speaker 2:But if you want to sniff some heads, we'll sniff some heads. It is what it is. And wherever you're at, you're valid, which is the whole point of this podcast, absolutely, and if y'all have any feedback, want to share any stories or want to hear about something in a future episode, it is podcast at validloveorg, again, podcast at validloveorg, and we will see y'all next week. Bye.
